Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next 130 Replies Latest reply: Aug 9, 2010 9:05 AM by narc_monkey Go to original post
  • JonnyOneNote Level 1 Level 1 (45 points)
    My friends are tired of me complaining about Apple abandoning its core audience, the graphic designers and photographers who stuck with Apple through thick and thin, but under Steve Jobs v2, we are being relegated more and more to the back of the bus. Ever since they dropped "Computer" from their company name, Apple's emphasis has been wooing Windows users over with toys like the iPod and iPhone, and the **** with the people who make their living using Apple's computers.

    Apple and Adobe have always had a love-hate relationship. Apple hated paying the royalties for PostScript fonts in their laser printers, so they joined forces with Microsoft and came up with TrueType. Problem solved!

    Adobe counters with OpenType. Let 'em eat cake!

    Fonts are expensive to buy. Converting them to OpenType using FontXChange or another 3rd party program doesn't always work. (Symbol and pi fonts are essentially useless without a glyph palette.)

    There are vendors out there (font.com, myfonts.com, to name a couple) that are STILL selling PostScript Type 1 fonts. Not all fonts have been upgraded to OpenType.

    This messing around with the font metrics is (in my opinion) reeks of arrogance and disdain for (a) the type designers who toiled long and hard in font-creation programs to get their metrics correct, and (b) the rules of all programs that rely on font rendering.

    Oh -- wait, I get it -- Apple just wants us to design everything in the System fonts they provide us with. .dfonts, anyone?

    Problem solved! haha <smirk>
  • Frozo Level 2 Level 2 (270 points)
    But its not just Adobe fonts. I have a huge problem with Helvetica Neue. I can not use 10.6 anymore, currently I am forced to work on my laptop which I thankfully never upgraded. From what I can tell, Apple is using their own version of common fonts now which makes it impossible for designers to use the versions that are in so many of their documents. This truly is a crippling oversight!!!

    I can also confirm that a manual I have been working on has totally reflowed using Gill Sans (An Adobe Systems font). And even if I fix it, you know darn well that the printer will have his revert back to the original and reflow like mad.

    This is the absolute worst OS screwup I have ever experienced since I started on System 7. How could Apple cripple the one industry that basically got them started? Honestly, unless this is fixed (and its possible it wont if we're just expected to suck it up) I can never ever upgrade my OS again. This is not a joke – Apple has seriously dropped the ball here.

    I tried the Suitcase update and have been in contact with one of its developers. Apparently there is a new version of Font Doctor coming out for 10.6. From what I can gather from him, all it is going to do is tag these fonts as "incompatible on the system". He really had no other help for me and he admits that in his opinion "it is a combo of 10.6 and font issue."

    Apple needs to address this asap because once the press gets a hold of Apple's affect on an industry (and they will), it will be extremely bad press for them.
  • Kurt Lang Level 8 Level 8 (35,475 points)
    But its not just Adobe fonts. I have a huge problem with Helvetica Neue.


    Do you mean the Helvetica Neue OS X installs, or a different older version of the font you need to use? If the latter, this has been an issue since Leopard came out. Apple put there own versions of Helvetica Neue and Helvetica into the System folder. That wouldn't have been a big deal if they had called it Apple Helvetica or something. But worse, the internal font names for just about all of Apple's versions are identical to the Type 1 fonts the industry has been using for years. So of course, they conflict.

    All you can do is get Apple's Helvetica fonts out of the way. See section 4 in Font Management in OS X to learn how to do that. The instructions apply to Snow Leopard in the same way, with the exception that Apple's Helvetica fonts are now .ttf and .ttc fonts rather than .dfonts.

    Apple is aware of the problem and are working on it.

    The link, or one of the links above directs you to my personal web site. While the information is free, it does ask for a contribution. As such, I am required by Apple's rules for these discussions to include the following disclaimer.

    I may receive some form of compensation, financial or otherwise, from my recommendation or link.
  • mvrana Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    My own experience with 10.6.1 and Type 1 fonts has been okay so far.

    As a test of legacy files, I tried opening a Quark 3.31 file created in 2001 for which I also had a reference PDF. I dragged the Type 1 fonts into my User/Fonts folder (the system alerted me of a conflict with Helvetica, which I ignored), and opened the file in Quark 8.1. A quick scan of the pages revealed no text reflow.

    As a second test, I converted all the fonts to OpenType using FontXchange 1.7, and then I did see some kerning and other problems (for example, the apostrophe character in a customized Caslon I have disappeared). I don't have FontXchange 2.0 yet, so will try once I upgrade -- though my inclination is to keep fonts as Type 1 if possible.

    Hopefully a coming system update will fix the problems that others are experiencing.
  • narc_monkey Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Nice to see the discussion continues. I have forgotten all about Snow Leopard now, and continue my regular workflow with Leopard. None of the add-ons granted in Snow Leopard are worth the headaches associated with this major bug. I feel bad for Extensis, they are probably receiving a firestorm of complaints about fonts, when it wasn't their fault in the first place.

    To add to the discussion, I have noticed that each affected font exhibits the spacing issue anywhere it is viewed. Its preview in Suitcase, Flash, Illustrator, Quark, word, everywhere. Its impossible to work cross-platform or cross-Mac OS with this kind of problem. At this point, I am wondering if I am going to have to wait for Apple to fix the problem, or am I just going to have to wait until every vendor and client I know has Snow Leopard, so we're all in this together.

    Such a goofy oversight on Apple's part, I mean REALLY goofy.
  • that Jeff guy Level 1 Level 1 (90 points)
    I think only one other person mentioned that work done in iWeb is affected by this problem as well.
    I was in the midst of a website design in iWeb, using a TrueType font for virtually all of the text. After installing Snow Leopard I had to go through and re-do each page, as all of the text was messed up... it seemed that the spacing between lines had gotten slightly smaller.
    Hoping for a fix soon... but then I'll need to go through each page and reformat them again?
    Aarghhh!
    Jeff
  • Steve Mouzon Level 2 Level 2 (215 points)
    I might be that person... I noticed the problem first in iWeb. In my case, both of the fonts that were causing problems got more spacing between the lines. But either way, it's getting screwed up. And neither are Type 1 fonts. One is .otf and the other is .dfont
  • Frozo Level 2 Level 2 (270 points)
    I mean I use my own set of Helvetica Neue. The majority of my clients use the same version. The same set I have been using for oh, 10+ years! If 10.5 had this issue, I never experienced it. This is a new issue for me since the day I installed 10.6.

    I hear that when you disable Apples Helvetica fonts, all **** breaks loose on their apps, since it is used everywhere.

    I am also having issues will Gill Sans, Formata, Didot, Stadia, and Wizbang (which are not as imperative, but annoying nonetheless). All problems that have not existed prior to 10.6
  • Kurt Lang Level 8 Level 8 (35,475 points)
    I hear that when you disable Apples Helvetica fonts, all ** breaks loose...


    No, it's not that bad. iWorks, iPhoto, iCal and quite a few of Apple's own software uses them for the interface text. If you have no form of Helvetica loaded at all, they may not launch, or if they do, they'll display very badly since some other font will be used (likely LastResort). But as long as some other version of Helvetica is active, they'll work. It's just that the text may display a bit strangely (a bit too big or small, wrong baseline, etc.).

    That's why my article suggests copying the Apple versions of Helvetica somewhere before removing them. That way, when you're done using the versions of Helvetica you must use for a project, you can deactivate those and reactivate the Apple versions. It's more for looks than anything.

    I am also having issues will Gill Sans, Formata, Didot, Stadia, and Wizbang...


    Those I would have to guess are due to the font issues in Snow Leopard. Of the ones you mention, SL installs a .ttc version of Didot and Gill Sans in the /Library/Fonts/ folder. Remove them if the versions you're trying to use are not the Apple supplied font.
  • TYP3G1RL Level 1 Level 1 (80 points)
    People that are running into this issue and want to see it addressed by Apple should log bugs into their database at http://bugreport.apple.com/

    The more noise we make the higher ranked this problem becomes.
  • Kurt Lang Level 8 Level 8 (35,475 points)
    Please see other thread where you posted the comment identical to this one.
  • TYP3G1RL Level 1 Level 1 (80 points)
    I really wasn't trying to create a mess.
  • Kurt Lang Level 8 Level 8 (35,475 points)
    No problem. I realize you're just frustrated with this issue, as are many others. Hopefully, they'll get it resolved soon.
  • Frozo Level 2 Level 2 (270 points)
    So THAT'S how you get 6,700+ posts...

    Helpful!
  • Kurt Lang Level 8 Level 8 (35,475 points)
    Don't know if I'd call my response "helpful". I'm just passing on the fact that Apple already knows about the issue.

    It also doesn't get me, or anyone else any points unless the person who originated the thread marks my post either Helpful or Solved.
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