Extremely disappointed with no 64bit Kernel support in my MacPro

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Level 1

47 points

Extremely disappointed with no 64bit Kernel support in my MacPro

Thanks to Scott for showing me how to determine if my MacPro will run the 64bit Kernel

ioreg -p IODeviceTree -w0 -l | grep firmware-abi

Unfortunately this reports "EFI32" only, no EFI64!!??

I have a late model 2007 MacPro with two dual-core 3Ghz Intel Xeon processors running at 1.33 GHz bus speed. Now I know for a fact these Xeon processors ARE 64bit capable, and so is the Intel motherboard/chipset they run on. In fact, I run Vista x64 on the same MacPro. So WHY on earth can I not run SL in 64bit Kernel mode??

Rob

Mac Pro 3Ghz, Mac OS X (10.5.8), ATI HD 3870, 8GB RAM, 2.5TB, 30" HD, 24" Dell, Motu Ultralite, Mackie, BlackMagi

Posted on Sep 2, 2009 9:51 PM

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Answer 1

Rob A. Author

Level 1

47 points

Sep 2, 2009 10:06 PM in response to Rob A.

Looks like I found my answer:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22009/SnowLeopard_Seeds_Use_32bit_Kernel_Drivers_byDefault

Not a HAPPY camper -- an artificially implemented limitation so as to promote sales of newer MacPros! Come on, my 2007 Mac Pro that I got in Oct is not even 2 years old yet.

Talk about giving Steve Ballmer fuel for his Microsoft cause ... geeeez Apple, what are thinking!!! I hope the Media pulls you apart piece by piece for this act of pure greed.

Rob

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Answer 2

Sep 2, 2009 10:12 PM in response to Rob A.

Rob,

Please. Be patient. If you have been following along, you should already know that running a 64-bit kernel is going to make close enough to ZERO difference that we may as well call it such. Not yet! Trust me when I say that you are not being left out of the fun.

In the meantime, we have oodles of third-party kexts and drivers that have thus far refused to leave the 64-bit womb. Even if you could run a 64-bit kernel, all you would find in that land is kext and driver pain. Maybe just a little, or maybe lots and lots. No fun, just pain. Are you into pain?

At some point, those little 64-bit bundles of joy will start arriving in the ward. When it is time for them to come home, I'm sure Apple will have prepared the basinet. For now, the older, uglier children live in that room, and we must continue making them comfortable in their 32-bit bunkbeds. Don't hurt their feelings, please.

Until then, make sure your firmware is up to date.

Scott

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Answer 3

Lyssa

Level 8

41,327 points

Sep 2, 2009 11:01 PM in response to Scott Radloff

Scott:

Your post made me giggle 🙂 I love the analogies.

~Lyssa

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Answer 4

Al2teach

Level 5

4,185 points

Sep 2, 2009 11:17 PM in response to Scott Radloff

lol, I have to agree and only think of this update, minus the PR and some other stuff, as laying out the groundwork for a future update. nothing wrong with eh increments. plus, think of the time software developers will have to update their programs. it's all good.

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Answer 5

D. Fraser

Level 3

560 points

Sep 2, 2009 11:29 PM in response to Rob A.

Another way to look at it is that if you actually need a 64-bit kernel. I noticed that you have 8GB RAM in your MP. How are you doing with page outs/page ins? I'm assuming you have virtually no page outs relative to your page ins. When the kernel needs more than 4GB RAM for itself, not the OS but the kernel alone, then it would be better to have a 64-bit kernel. Until then you can still run 64-bit apps in all their glory running on a 32-bit kernel without the pain that Scott suggested. By all means your MP is not a dog now that it can't run the 64-bit kernel. My '06 Mac Pro can't run it either but that doesn't mean I can't have a 64-bit app capable machine. It runs SL very well. SL has improved the performance of my 32-bit apps which, for me, was well worth the price of admission. When I absolutely need a 64-bit EFI is when I'll replace my 3-year old MP. But right now (and the foreseeable future) the 32-bit EFI is just fine.

D.

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Answer 6

Sep 3, 2009 12:13 AM in response to Lyssa

Lyssa,

Yeah, I start to get a little loopy, and my imagination starts to get the best of me.

At the end of the day, if I have managed to make you- or anyone else for that matter- giggle, I'll call the day a success. 🙂

Scott

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Answer 7

Rob A. Author

Level 1

47 points

Sep 3, 2009 9:27 AM in response to Scott Radloff

I don't know Scott, leaving ... errrr, hoping Apple do the right thing here sounds a little too religious. I'll go a little loopy too, I'm not a big supporter of "faith".

I suspect that my recently added ATI 3870 video card (I got to help with FCS Motion fps performance) which is availble in two variants -- one for EFI64 and one for EFI32 is just NOT gonna work even if Apple did provide a EFI64 firmware for my 07 MacPro. Which I'm gonna guess means I'd need to get a new EFI64 based video card ... anyway, can you see the tangled we this is building on?

But I suppose it doesn't matter right now, every application that is meaningful to me on my MacPro (CS4, FCS and Logic) is not 64bit and it will be at least a year, probably 2 years before I see those apps move to 64bit. However CS5 is rumored to be 64bit for Mac's.

HOWEVER, Cinema 4D supports 64bit and that IS VERY important for me. To find out that my artifically limited MacPro can't run a 64bit Kernel is frustrating to say the least. Ugh 😟

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Answer 8

Sep 3, 2009 3:00 PM in response to Rob A.

Rob,

HOWEVER, Cinema 4D supports 64bit and that IS VERY important for me. To find out that my artifically limited MacPro can't run a 64bit Kernel is frustrating to say the least. Ugh 😟

Well, this brings up something I haven't addressed (yet) at all, but have you considered that you are jumping- and jumping far- to conclusions here? It is obvious that your Mac Pro is limited, but artificially???? No.

What you may have overlooked is the fact that the CPU, and its "bitness," is not the whole story. Just as important is the chipset to which the CPU communicates. And it is this chipset that will really determine what firmware can- and cannot- be installed on a given machine.

Perhaps the chipset in your particular Mac Pro model will not support the EFI64 firmware. Or, perhaps there is something specific about it that makes it incompatible with the EFI64 firmware as it currently exists. Honestly, I just don't know. I do, however, find some such possibility much more likely than that Apple is "artificially" hampering your functionality.

And maybe you are missing the fact that Cinema 4D, if 64-bit, will run perfectly well on your Mac Pro. 64-bit kernel or not.

Scott

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Answer 9

Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM in response to Rob A.

Your MBP pro is a Core 2 Duo, right? If so, then 64-bit apps will still use the 64-bit kernel. And, if so, it makes virtually no difference if you can boot into the 64-bit kernel. [Check out post 5 in this thread.|http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=10103812&#10103812]

Message was edited by: donv (The Ghost)

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Answer 10

Rob A. Author

Level 1

47 points

Sep 3, 2009 3:30 PM in response to donv_the_ghost

Donv,

I'm talking about my MacPro (read my message thread title), NOT a MacBookPro.

My MacPro is Xeon 5100 series processor (5160, two of them) with a motherboard that is capable of 1.33Ghz with 64-bit dual independent frontside buses, and 64-bit data paths and 64-bit registers. It is running Intel 5000 series chipset

And like I said, my 2007 MacPro is running Vista x64 with all it's glory just fine with 64 bit windows applications with full access to my 8GB of RAM.

Scott,

Sorry but the EFI32 is artificial, there is NO reason why my hardware can not be EFI64 so I can have access to SL 64bit kernel.

I can NOT get into 64bit Kernel mode so how is it possible for me to run 64bit applications? Are you suggesting that I can run 64bit applications in 32bit kernel AND have full access to my 8GB RAM on a single thread?

Rob.

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Answer 11

Sep 3, 2009 3:38 PM in response to Rob A.

Rob,

Are you suggesting that I can run 64bit applications in 32bit kernel AND have full access to my 8GB RAM on a single thread?

Absolutely!!! There is absolutely no need to have a 64-bit kernel running, to have complete and comprehensive support for 64-bit applications. In fact, even Leopard provided this complete support.

But, I give up, and yield to you. Apple did, indeed intentionally and artificially hamstring your Mac Pro by refusing to provide the EFI64 firmware to you. There is no reason for their decision, and no extenuating circumstances, other than the fact that Steve doesn't like people named Rob. You win.

Scott

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Answer 12

Rob A. Author

Level 1

47 points

Sep 3, 2009 3:52 PM in response to Scott Radloff

Scott,

Interesting - so a 32bit kernel permits threads larger than 2GB via Cocoa API? Would like to know the details behind that -- I've only dabbled with the Cocoa API.

From a hardware perspective there is no reason not to have EFI64 -- I'm not looking for you to yield or to win, I'm looking for a reason, one that you don't appear to have or don't want to share. There is no need for deflection, if you don't know why that is fine.

Rob

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Answer 13

Sep 3, 2009 4:02 PM in response to Scott Radloff

Yes, that's what the read I linked says. Did you read post 5 of my link. Sorry for thinking you have an MBP, but no harm, no foul.

Message was edited by: donv (The Ghost)

Message was edited by: donv (The Ghost)

Message was edited by: donv (The Ghost)

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Answer 14

Sep 3, 2009 4:04 PM in response to Rob A.

EFI is a physical characteristic of a machine; You can't just "change" 32-bit EFI to 64-bit EFI. This is not an artificial limitation.

You seem to be upset over nothing, really: Running a 32-bit kernel in no way prohibits you from running 64 bit applications. They have the full 64-bit address space available: They can allocate tens or hundreds of gigabytes of heap space. In every way, they are 64-bit applications, and behave as such, and have no limitations whatsoever from running on a 32-bit kernel.

The only time you would get a real measurable advantage from having a 64-bit kernel is if you have > 8 GB of RAM, and if you are running > 2000 applications. And what you lose from having a 64-bit kernel is compatibility. No 32-bit drivers or kernel extensions can run.

There are good reasons why no versions of Mac OS X default to a 64 bit kernel, on any hardware. The only installs of any version of Mac OS X that default to K64 are Mac OS X Server when it is installed on the Mac Pros and Xserves that are running EFI64.

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Answer 15

Rob A. Author

Level 1

47 points

Sep 3, 2009 9:33 PM in response to William Lloyd

William,

I don't understand why "> 8GB of RAM" -- how are you determining 8GB of RAM?

How about this, can someone list the limitations of EFI32 and the limitations of EFI64? I can't find any documentation detailing the difference.

I do plan to install more than 8GB of RAM as I do a lot of work in FCS 3, Logic, CS4 and I'm just now looking at Cinema 4D (64bit) but I fully plan to move to CS5 (when released this will be 64bit). All these applications will consume as large chunks of RAM (well beyond 8GB) and it would be a more efficient workflow for me if they stayed open and functional while I switch between the apps.

As far as 64bit driver support, you're dead wrong, BlackMagic designs have released SL drivers that are 64bit capable (made a phone call to confirm).

http://blackmagic-design.com/support/software/snowleopard/

MOTU will be releasing 64bit drivers for my Ultralite very soon.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/are-you-ready-to-tame-snow-leopard

I found some good reading on EFI32/64 here:

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8300945231/m/775006800041/p/2

and here

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-721080.html

There is some disagreement, but basically if I have > 4GB (or 8GB) on a EFI32 ROM I will start to see some performance degradation vs. > 4GB on an EFI64 ROM. How much of a difference I don't know.

From what I can gather, the ROM used in my 2007 MacPro IS physically capable of supporting EFI64 flash. And finally in this article from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtensibleFirmwareInterface

It clearly states

"Extensions to EFI can be loaded from virtually any non-volatile storage device attached to the computer. For example, an original equipment manufacturer (OEM) can sell systems with an EFI partition on the hard drive, which would add additional functions to the standard EFI firmware stored on the motherboard’s ROM."

So ... Apple you know what you should do, and you know you can do it. So please bring EFI64 to our less than 2 year old MacPro's. I bought this MacPro because it was Intel, it had an upgradeable future, it was capable of 64bit processing and 32GB of RAM.

Rob.

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