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Dither screwed up in WB 1.6

For all the posts about plugins not working and so on, what I've found is that you can't do anything in WB that would require a bounce or any kind of dither because that is broken. If you are putting files into WB and running plugins on them, then dithering (which you need to do for any kind of DSP), you are actually creating CDs of truncated 16 bits, I'm sorry to say.

I found this out because I wanted to hear what the different Powr algorithms sounded like, so I tried importing a -75dbFs 24 bit sine wave into WB and bouncing it with dither. Then reimporting it into Logic and putting enough gain on it to hear what's happening.

My experiments show that it turns into a nasty square wave or something similar when bounced.

Doesn't matter what the dither settings are.

I created a 16 bit dithered file of that same sine wave in Izotope RX using Mbit+ dither and burned it to a CD in WB directly without bouncing, then reimported it into Logic.
I heard a sine wave amidst a lot of noise. This is what it should sound like.

Did the same thing using Barbabatch. It's dither wasn't as good but it was basically the same thing.

Did the same thing with a bounce in WB, and it was corrupted. Night and Day. A buzzy wave with no noise at all. The dither doesn't work. It's just truncating the audio from what I can tell. I tried all the dither settings in the preferences I could find. They don't work.

In fact, even if you bounce a predithered file without doing anything else to it, it will get corrupted. Just the act of bouncing truncates the lowest bits.

You can't do mastering and you can't use plugins on files going to 16 bit without dithering.

The only way this software can be used is to import finished and dithered 16 bit files and not do ANYTHING to them. No bouncing of any kind. No plugins, no fades, no level adjustments. Nothing except ordering, spacing, and hitting the burn command.

Only under those conditions does it not corrupt the audio in the lowest bits.

Try my experiment if you don't believe it. You can create a low level sine wave with the test oscillator in Logic.

Hopefully this will get fixed.

MacPro 2.66 Quad, 11GB Ram, (3) WD Raptor SATA drives, Mac OS X (10.5.8), MOTU 896mk3, UAD-2 quad, (2) Unitor8s, MCcontrol/MCmix, KORE, Melodyne

Posted on Oct 16, 2009 11:34 PM

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26 replies

Oct 17, 2009 8:53 PM in response to John Mccaig

Those are the same versions as I'm running.I wonder if it has anything to do with Snow Leopard. I'm in 10.5.8.

I ran the tests after updating Logic to 9.02. My software update says there is nothing to update.

Have you tried listening to a very low level sinewave after a bounce? What did you use to test the bit integrity?

Oct 18, 2009 3:34 AM in response to John Mccaig

But what are you nulling?

If you start with a 24 bit file, and compare that to the same file in 16 bit dithered and bounced in WB, how can you do a null test between those two? Those won't null even in theory.

Are you saying you dithered to 16 prior to WB and then nulled that with the output file of WB's bounce with dither turned off in the WB prefs? It would work in theory, but it wouldn't accomplish much except to verify that bounce *without dither* doesn't corrupt the audio.

I'm not sure how you can figure out whether dither is broken from a null test because the last bit at least will never null with anything else you compare it to.

In an experiment I just tried after trashing WB prefs, a WB bounced 24 bit -75 dbFS sine (sounds like a sine with no noise when gained up) reduced to 16 bit with POWr3 does have a bit of dither noise, but it also has a very nasty higher frequency buzzy squeal over the fundamental, completely unlike any dither I've ever heard. Mbit and BB dither sounds like a sine wave inside dither noise. WB dither/bounce sounds like ugly distortion over a sine wave. It isn't subtle and I do not believe POWr dither sounds that bad.

Instead of doing a null test, try actually gaining up a very low level sine tone and listening after you dither in WB and see what it sounds like. If it sounds like a pure sine wave inside noise, without any weird distortions, then you have some magic I don't, or maybe Snow Leopard does.

Oct 18, 2009 4:23 PM in response to timrob

I had already downloaded PK5 but just in case I reinstalled it yesterday and I'm still getting the same problem.

Since both of you are using 10.6, I think there is a strong possibility that if this problem has been fixed, it is due to Snow Leopard and not the PK 5.0

Unfortunately I am buried under a ton of work for the next month and can't upgrade for a while because I can't afford the down time to reauthorize and so on.

If anyone can verify this bit error is fixed under 10.5, then I will know it's something else.

I am still getting this error and I've done it enough times now and compared it with enough other software that I'm convinced it isn't pilot error.

Oct 19, 2009 1:34 AM in response to timrob

Thanks for that. Interesting.

Everyone is doing null tests. I guess you can get a null down to -90 +/- or so. Although I don't understand what the procedure is. For one thing WB seems to add about 20 ms to the beginning of my files when it bounces so you can't really align the files for a null test. Another WB feature.

I would urge people to try the sine test to hear what is really going on with the "dither".

FWIW, I just tried bouncing out the same 24 bit sine file from Logic 9 using the same POWr dither setting as WB, and I heard exactly what I would expect: it was fine. It sounds like a sine wave inside a wall of noise.

Same file bounced in WB, same dither, nasty buzzy wave.

Alright. I'm done. I guess I'm the only one having this problem.

More power to you guys, but I'm sticking with Wave Editor, even though it's a PITA to use.

Oct 19, 2009 7:20 AM in response to danseq

I'm curious where you are getting your sine wave. In other words, How are you generating it?
If you're getting it from Test OSC in Logic then all bets are off. It has a kind of buzzy sound already.
If you want to contact me privately and send me a clip of your Sine wave, I'd be happy to bounce out some files from WB here and make sure whether it works ok here or not.

Oct 19, 2009 2:19 PM in response to timrob

I'll contact you OL and send the files to you. In a day or two when I get out from under a deadline.

However, whether the sine in the Logic Oscillator is perfect is really not relevant (I did use it). It just has to be sine-ish enough that any harmonics are not terribly obvious as compared to the screeching and buzzing due to the WB dither/bounces. When the gain is subsequently turned up to normal hearing range, this is not a subtle effect at all.

As I said, it still sounds sine-ish when the same dithering procedure is used in Logic, so I don't see how that point about the faults in the Logic oscillator really comes into play. A triangle wave would suit this experiment just fine as well, for example.

Oct 19, 2009 3:17 PM in response to danseq

danseq,

I had posted a link to this topic over on daw-mac, that's one of the Yahoo groups, there are users of PT, Logic, Cubase...etc, all Mac.

here's the reply I received:
-------------------
"Make sure that you have the latest ProKit 5.0 especially if you are in 10.5.x.
It is my understanding that update fixes the 16-bit dither issue.
I haven't done any testing on that. Mostly because I use Ozone for dither
instead of the built-in POW-R dither."
--------------------

It sounds like some are aware of a 16 bit dither problem.
pancenter-

Oct 19, 2009 7:09 PM in response to Pancenter

Thanks,

Yes I'll amend my initial post following installation of Prokit 5.0 to say that WB seems to be adding dither now, or trying to, so I can't say it's truncating per se--I don't know what it's doing--but it is still audibly and saliently corrupting the sound of the sine wave, in fact it sounds worse in some ways than before.

Not so with Mbit+
Not so with Barbabatch dither.
And most relevant: not so when bounced with the *same dither settings* in Logic

Oct 19, 2009 9:21 PM in response to danseq

I created a 24-bit 1k sine wave using sox @ -60db. Then Imported into WB 1.6 and bounced the file out with pow-R #1. I did not add any gain to either file. I zipped the files and they are shared at the following link.

http://files.me.com/waterknot1/w19yin

Seems to work fine here. Still haven't tested on my other machine which has 10.5.8.
It will be interesting to see what happens there.

Best Wishes,

timrob

Oct 19, 2009 10:22 PM in response to timrob

Thanks for checking this. timrob.

It definitely sounds better than mine, although my sine is down around -75 or -80. I do think I can hear something in the dither that's a little static-y, but I'm not sure if that's the sound of POW-r I dither or the higher frequency corruption I'm experiencing. If I weren't listening for it I might not notice it, but again, my sine was much lower in gain. The sine and the hiss are at about equal volume perceptually in my test. Without a further test at a lower sine level I'd say it's ok.

Also very curious to see if it sounds the same in 10.5.8

Can you repeat with sine down 20 dB +/- from there? If it's clean then it's either something in my system or 10.6.

Oct 19, 2009 10:45 PM in response to danseq

Ok I just posted a few files.

the original 24 bit file which starts around -75 and fades down gradually.

One dithered to 16 with mbit dither. This is really nice dither.
One dithered to 16 with Logic POW-r 2. Dither isn't as smooth as mbit, but the sine is fine.
One dithered to 16 with WB POW-r 1 (not the same type I know but I was moving quickly and had to leave)

Only the last one has the buzzy artifacts I've been complaining about.

You'll need a lot of gain to hear these.

http://musaic.biz/samples/login.php

user: waveburnerforum
pw: bitbug

Dither screwed up in WB 1.6

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