Sanyo iFrame vs 1080p

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Level 7

21,597 points

Sanyo iFrame vs 1080p

None of the sites I look to for cam data have updated to include the FH1a or the HD2000a (they only refer to the pre-a versions) so I've recorded a 16 second clip with iFrame and 1080p and have them available for download for 5 days (or until bandwidth gives out). They're over 40 megs each (yeah, both of them are).

iFrame
http://files.me.com/makentosh/nk0e0u.mov

1080p (60fps)
http://files.me.com/makentosh/of0hf5.mov

The FIRST thing you're likely to notice is that the 1080p file is actually smaller than the 540p one. Also, I trimmed both of these using QuickTime X which saved them as .mov. They may work happily with iMovie, OR they may force the creation of the AIC converted file. I can reup as .mp4's if anyone wants to see that.

Does anyone know what's "special" about iFrame? There's been discussion that it's an intraframe codec, but can you tell from looking at the file?

MacBook Pro 2.5- 2 Gigs, Mac OS X (10.5.6), 1 GHz TiBook 1 Gig

Posted on Nov 12, 2009 6:34 AM

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Answer 1

Nov 12, 2009 7:02 AM in response to Kyn Drake

Does anyone know what's "special" about iFrame? There's been discussion that it's an intraframe codec, but can you tell from looking at the file?

What should be special is that 540p should save room on the camera and produce approximately the same quality as importing the 1080p and exporting it to 540p (this assuming 540p is what is wanted)

However after examining your clips neither of these are true. As you say the 540p file is just as large if not larger, and the 1080p imported into imovie and exported at 540p is better than the 540p from the camera (and approximately 1/7 th the size)

You may have different settings for 540p but reducing the file size even if you can isn't going to create better quality. The size of the 540p just doesn't make sense to me.

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Answer 2

Kyn Drake Author

Level 7

21,597 points

Nov 12, 2009 7:54 AM in response to Winston Churchill

That's one of the discussions I've been looking for, but I haven't seen any other clips posted for people to look over. There's been some assumptions about what the format would be or the problems it would solve, and it looks like file size on the camera is NOT one of them. I know my initial expectation was that 540p would be even smaller than 720p, so I was surprised to find it was almost the same as 1080p 60fps.

Going back to the main page http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3905, I see now that it makes no such claims as to the file size, only that importing will be sped up. I can say that on clips of this size, you can still see that importing of the smaller (but same file sized) file is shorter and would probably be an even greater difference on larger files.

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Answer 3

Nov 13, 2009 4:56 AM in response to Kyn Drake

Kyn, have you modified the 1080p clip in any way.

The one I have downloaded is an mpeg4 video as opposed to an AVCHD movie. I don't see any difference in import times between the two, but then I wouldn't expect to since neither need converting and both are approximately the same size.

Personally I still remain of the idea that shooting at 540p is a good idea. But that's on the assumption that shooting at 540p is the same quality as shooting at 1080p then converting to 540p, which it doesn't seem to be, and that the file sizes are much smaller which they don't seem to be and that we are comparing import times to importing AVCHD which needs converting, which also doesn't appear to be.

I wonder if Sanyo have enabled the 540p option by shooting at 1080p and manipulating the file to appear as a 540p in some way.

This doesn't make much sense to me. If I had the camera I would assume that 540p allowed me to shoot my child's entire school concert without missing a bit in the middle to change cards and provide me with a simplified route to putting edited content on my tv or mac gallery.

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Answer 4

Kyn Drake Author

Level 7

21,597 points

Nov 13, 2009 6:56 AM in response to Winston Churchill

Other than trimming to make sure they're both the same time length to get a better feel of the relative file sizes, I've not performed any other editing. All of Samsung's many modes shot as mpeg4 video (which is another thing I like about this cam). I'd thought that anything that's not iFrame would need to be converted to AIC. Can you tell if iMovie's representation of the iFrame content (internally) is any different from the 1080p? I haven't done that level of investigation myself as I'm not familiar with how iMovie stores files, but now's a good time to learn!

I didn't do import tests with this video, but with others I thought I did note a slightly longer import time with the 1080p, but those clips weren't as controlled as these. I'll try again.

I did notice that the updated "a" version of this camera doesn't include the "Video stabilization limitation" under Additional Compatibility Information on the iMovie compatibility page

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3290

This leads me to think that they're doing some kind of shenanigans with the content so that it's less affected by motion. I shot a really edge case video (monitor, in the dark, twisting the camera like a screwdriver) and I could just discern some "jello-ness". My normal video appears to stabilize quite well.

I'd like to see a review versus the FH1. From the reviews for that camera, it does appear they've made other minor changes, not just a new image size (starts faster, interface changed, etc.)

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Answer 5

Kyn Drake Author

Level 7

21,597 points

Nov 13, 2009 7:18 AM in response to Winston Churchill

Just tried importing and the "Generating Thumbnails" part easily took twice as long for the 1080p on my computer. Of course, "twice" being the difference between instantaneous and twice that. The 540p clip started and finished without building the progress bar. I actually saw the progress bar for the 1080p one take time to build across.

Also, looked into where the clips are stored, they appear to be just copying over, neither being converted to any other format (still the same file size AND date). And the thumbnail files are both 3.3 megs which I would expect.

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Answer 6

rtvan

Level 1

0 points

Nov 25, 2009 3:45 PM in response to Kyn Drake

Both the FH1A and the HD2000A have multiple video shooting modes including iFrame (960 x 540) as well as true 1080P at 60 Frames per second. The iFrame video mode in SANYO's cameras works seemlessy with the iFrame mode in iMovie. The primary advantage to shooting in this mode is the significantly shortened time frame in downloading video. Since the video is shot in the same format that the video is edited you don't have to wait to download the content.

SANYO cameras shoot everything in MPEG4, H.264 with AAC audio which makes them fully compatible with the entire Mac environment.

My FH1A works great with iMovie.

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Answer 7

Nov 25, 2009 4:12 PM in response to rtvan

Fair enough, however I'd also expect it to take up considerably less space on the camera than 1080p and produce a comparative quality to 1080p exported to 540p, neither of which it does. If you look back at other threads in this forum you'll see I'm one of a very few that saw an advantage in iFrame, but that was based on the expectations I mention hereinbefore. Otherwise I'll sacrifice the extra time for quality every time.

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Answer 8

Dec 6, 2009 6:44 AM in response to Kyn Drake

I just purchased the Sanyo Xacti VPC-FH1ABK from the Apple Store primarily based upon the "iFrame works great with iMovie" marketing. However, when I connect the camera to my iMac (Intel), I'm giving a choice to connect as a Card Scanner (which mounts it in the finder AND opens iPhoto) and several other options that either open iPhoto or iTunes, but none of them open iMovie. Even if I have iMovie open, it doesn't recognize the camcorder.

I've previously used a Canon Elura 80 miniDV camcorder that would automatically open iMovie - that's what I'd like to happen with the Sanyo. Is that possible or should I look to return this for an HD camcorder that does?

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Answer 9

zyfert

Level 3

610 points

Dec 6, 2009 2:53 PM in response to David Reid

While iMovie does not seem to recognise Sanyos, the files are perfectly compatible.
Try this method, it may seem initially to be a little cumbersome but it really does not take that much time.
1. Connect your camera and open as a card scanner - your camera will mount on your desktop.
2. Double click and open the camera files (Xacti, DCM, Sanyo etc.)
You should now see all the video files on your camera's disc.
3. At this stage before you import into iMovie you can preview any of the clips simply by clicking once and highlighting it.
Press the space bar to play it and again to quit.
4. You can either create a new folder or simply select all the clips you want and either drag them into your new folder or onto the desktop.
Eject and disconnect your camera.
5. Open iMovie and go to File > Import > Movies... and navigate to the video files and import using your preferred event name, file size etc.
regards,
Z

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Answer 10

Dec 6, 2009 3:29 PM in response to Winston Churchill

Winston, I may have this wrong, but it strikes me that the advantage of i-frame is not to save space on the camera, but to save time in editing.

To me, i-frame seems like Apple Intermediate Codec at 540P, which means it can be imported to iMovie with no conversion.

Most people, including myself, will shoot at 1080i, then import at 1080i. iMovie blows up the file 10x to convert to AIC (and this takes some multiple of real time, 1.25x for me). Then iMovie renders at 540P. It should be quicker to have the camera record in AIC at 540P, then the workflow gets much simpler, at the expense of a (potentially) larger file on the camera. Instead of import being a multiple of real time, import is almost instantaneous.

It seems to me that the trade off is that in five years, consumer level equipment will be able to edit 1080i and 1080p and achieve good performance, so if everything is saved in 1080i or 1080p, we could go back and re-render. But the i-frame stuff would be frozen in time at 540p, just like DV is frozen in time at SD.
Not sure I am thinking of this right, but that's what I am thinking.

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Answer 11

Dec 6, 2009 4:04 PM in response to zyfert

Thanks for the quick response - that's the approach I've been using and it does work well. I was just expecting it to be automatically recognized by iMovie. So far, I've been happy with the camera, especially the features and cost.

Hopefully, Apple and/or Sanyo can address this in an upcoming upgrade.

Thanks again for the help!

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Answer 12

Kyn Drake Author

Level 7

21,597 points

Dec 6, 2009 11:31 PM in response to AppleMan1958

Another note, it appears that the 1080p file from the Sanyo doesn't get an AIC conversion. So, that's one other benefit of a "real" MPEG4 h.264 file.

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Answer 13

Dec 7, 2009 5:27 PM in response to Kyn Drake

How do you find the quality of the camcorder and lens? Do you like it? Can you update us? I am curious if you see an export quality difference between shooting in 1080p and 540p? I am still confused.

tx

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Answer 14

Dec 7, 2009 6:17 PM in response to Sheryl Kingstone

1) As far as I know -- iFrame is not an "I-frame" codec like AIC or DVCPRO-HD or ProRes. A very misleading name.

2) It is generic H.264/AVC that iM has always imported without a need to convert to AIC.

3) If the imported file is the same size as a 1080p30 or 1080i60 file -- the answer is likely that all Sanyo has done is add a flag to the "iFrame" file that signals iM to skip every other line when editing the file. Hence, instant 540p. Then, to keep the aspect-ratio correct -- iM skips every other pixel in each line. Presto -- 960x540 images which edit much faster.

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Answer 15

Kyn Drake Author

Level 7

21,597 points

Dec 8, 2009 5:52 AM in response to Sheryl Kingstone

What everyone says about the low light performance is true. I shot a parade a few days ago at dusk and the image is quite good. I'm still becoming accustomed to some of the higher end functions (they should put camera manuals on the app store, I've been carrying mine with me everywhere) 😉

There's a BIG difference between 1080p and 540p for a stationary video. The difference is less severe for motion or objects that are farther away, but once you see the difference, you'll think of it every time you capture video. Others have commented that the 540p out of the camera is worse than taking the 1080p source and converting it. (I could re-post the two files above if you'd like to download my test clips). All in all, I've enjoyed my re-entry into video camera ownership and glad I skipped the AVCHD cams.

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