How important is the 50 degree F minimum operating temperature?

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Level 1

1 points

How important is the 50 degree F minimum operating temperature?

Following up from a response to another question: it's been very cold in my area of late. My living room is very large, and the heater doesn't work very well. Thus, the temperature there when I've been using my MBP is pretty darn low. I'm not sure how low, but starting up the past few days has had my HD temp initially at 50 degrees F or lower.

That got me wondering: the manual says that the minimum temperature at which to operate the MBP is 50 degrees. Is that a hard and fast thing? Am I risking any damage if it's not 50 when I use my MBP? Could it have caused the unusually long pause between pressing the start button (hearing the optical drive work) and startup chime (although the temp wasn't THAT bad at the time)?

Thanks in advance!

Macbook Pro 13", Mac OS X (10.5.8)

Posted on Dec 10, 2009 10:38 AM

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Answer 1

JoeyR

Level 6

8,305 points

Dec 10, 2009 10:51 AM in response to LeaperBP

I have never heard of an issue with using any notebook in that temp range. At very low temps (somewhat lower than you are talking about)... you may get slower reaction times on an LCD display. What you generally want to avoid is letting your computer get "very" cold and then bringing it into a warm room. This is mostly to prevent condensation from forming on the internal components which would pretty much be the same as spilling water into it. This is relatively uncommon in the winter time as the air is usually very dry when it's that cold out. Many people use humidifiers in the winter time to counteract the dry air... but they do not generally produce enough moister to cause condensation. For the most part, you should be fine.

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Answer 2

eww

Level 9

53,052 points

Dec 10, 2009 10:52 AM in response to LeaperBP

Yes, you risk damaging your computer by using it at temps below 50°F, and particularly when starting it up or waking it from sleep at lower temperatures. The lubricants in the hard drive, optical drive and fans may stiffen up when they're cold, causing those devices to operate at sub-par rotational speeds, suffer undue wear, and draw excessive power when the machine is cold. An even more serious threat is that of moisture from the ambient air (including your own breath) condensing on and inside the machine and causing short circuits. Keep your machine well above 50°F between uses, or allow it to warm up for *at least* an hour before you turn it on or wake it.

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Answer 3

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 10, 2009 11:12 AM in response to LeaperBP

Wow, two completely different answers here. 🙂

Trouble is, I really don't have many ways to "warm up" my computer (or even tell what temperature it really is, but that's neither here nor there). What are safe ways to do so? My other option is simply to take it with me wherever I go, even if I'm not using it, but that still leaves the question of how to tell how cold the MBP is before starting it up. Also, how does one avoid the condensation thing anyway? And how do I tell if any damage's already been done?

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Answer 4

eww

Level 9

53,052 points

Dec 10, 2009 11:41 AM in response to LeaperBP

The first thing for you to do is get yourself a thermometer and find out whether or not the temperature indoors where you normally use your computer is actually going below 50°. It's extremely unlikely that you can sit and work comfortably at a computer at 50°, no matter what you're wearing. If the room temperature drops when you aren't in the room (e.g. when you're sleeping elsewhere in the house), don't leave your computer there — take it to a warmer room.

If the room temperature is really falling below 50° and you can't reasonably move the computer, or if the temperature in your whole house falls into the 40s at night (I used to heat my house with a wood stove, so I've been there), the second thing to do is buy a neoprene sleeve with a flap closure and a good padded computer bag that the computer will fit into inside its sleeve. Immediately after using the machine and before leaving it in your refrigerated room, shut it down or put it to sleep, *make sure the sleep light is pulsing* if you've put it to sleep, and put it into the sleeve and the sleeve into the bag. Close it all up. It will stay warm enough that way for many hours, even in a 40° room or traveling in the car with you. For a cheaper insulating solution at home only, wrap the machine in several layers of fuzzy blanket while it's still warm from being used — but always after making sure it is really asleep or shut down. Wrap your thermometer up with it if you want to see how well the machine's heat is held in.

As for cold winter air carrying little humidity, that's quite true — except inside a building where people breathe, cook, wash dishes, exercise, and shower. Most people are extremely uncomfortable at indoor temperatures when the ambient humidity is anywhere near as low as that of typical winter outdoor air.

Message was edited by: eww

Message was edited by: eww

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Answer 5

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 10, 2009 11:45 AM in response to eww

Heh, well, the only indication I had of temperature was waving a meat thermometer in the air; it said high 40's. But I suppose that's kind of inaccurate. 🙂 And I am uncomfortable being in that room, but maybe the fact that I'm able to stay in it at all means it's warmer than I think. Hmm. Anyway, it seems that my biggest obstacle is where I store the laptop when I leave it at home.

I do have a kinda old laptop backpack with a sleeve that came with it; how do I tell if it's neoprene?

As for the humidity, I assume the best thing to do there is just to keep it away from the bathroom (and myself, after I've showered) and big temp swings?

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Answer 6

eww

Level 9

53,052 points

Dec 10, 2009 11:59 AM in response to LeaperBP

I do have a kinda old laptop backpack with a sleeve that came with it; how do I tell if it's neoprene?

It doesn't have to be neoprene; it's just that that's what most padded sleeves are made of. It's padding you want, because padding is insulation. Whatever you have is going to be better than nothing, for sure. Again, just put your machine in it when it's warm, and slip a cheap hardware-store outdoor thermometer in with it so you can tell how well it's held the warmth when you open it up later.

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Answer 7

JoeyR

Level 6

8,305 points

Dec 10, 2009 12:13 PM in response to LeaperBP

Actually eww brought up some things that I hadn't considered. Keep in mind... the spec for storage of your MacBook is -13 F to 113 F. So if you are not using it for quite a while, it is not an issue to "store" it in a colder room just so long that as you bring it up to within it's operational temps before using it. Keeping it insulated, as eww suggested will generally keep it warm enough for quite a while anyway.

Keep in mind that humidity in general is not an issue... the MacBook is spec'd for 0-90% "noncondensing". Basically... this means it's fine if you generally keep it in a warmer environment with higher humidity... you just want to be careful of any transition from a cold dry environment to a warmer humid one.

I don't think I've ever seen a meat thermometer go down to 40 F.... but when I say meat thermometer, I'm thinking of the kind you use when you're cooking... I'd imagine there are thermometers for meat storage that drop into the low temps. A good choice for accurate temp measurements is an infrared thermometer. You can get them anywhere from about $20 US on up. You just aim them at the item you want to measure and you get an instant accurate temperature.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=infrared +thermometer&x=0&y=0

Sometimes things like meat thermometers or room thermometers aren't super accurate. They're meant to be "about" right.

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Answer 8

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 10, 2009 12:43 PM in response to JoeyR

True, but infrareds don't give much help in measuring ambient/room temp, which seems to be the important part here. 🙂 (Or even if it was used on the computer, it'd just measure the casing, not anything inside.)

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Answer 9

carl wolf

Level 6

14,631 points

Dec 10, 2009 5:44 PM in response to LeaperBP

" Is that a hard and fast thing? "

Are you sure that's the question you want answered? If so, here's answer #1:

Apple tests it's products outside of the specified operating temperature, to assure that the product will operate to the environmental specification.

Here's answer #2:

it doesn't matter, because it's so cold in your room that the computer won't operate properly

Other posters have gone to great lengths to detail how to measure the temperature in your room. There are "inside/outside" thermometers that will measure from -40F to 120F. Will buying a thermometer answer your question or solve your problem?

There are several cheap and easy solutions to assure your computer is kept at a proper temperature but, since that wasn't your question...

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Answer 10

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 10, 2009 5:53 PM in response to carl wolf

carl wolf wrote:
" Is that a hard and fast thing? "

Are you sure that's the question you want answered? If so, here's answer #1:

Apple tests it's products outside of the specified operating temperature, to assure that the product will operate to the environmental specification.

Without damage, though? That was my concern. (I do realize, though, that the temp thing probably isn't rock solid hard and fast. But still.)

Here's answer #2:

it doesn't matter, because it's so cold in your room that the computer won't operate properly

? It DOES operate (albeit with a couple of hiccups that might've been caused by cold, like the long pause before startup chime). That doesn't necessarily mean the situation is ideal, tho'.

Other posters have gone to great lengths to detail how to measure the temperature in your room. There are "inside/outside" thermometers that will measure from -40F to 120F. Will buying a thermometer answer your question or solve your problem?

It'll certainly help me figure out what factors are in play, which is why I'm going to do so tomorrow.

There are several cheap and easy solutions to assure your computer is kept at a proper temperature but, since that wasn't your question...

Oh, don't withhold that on my account. Please, go ahead with your solutions. The more the merrier.

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Answer 11

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 12, 2009 4:09 AM in response to LeaperBP

Okay, I found a thermometer. My living room is 42 degrees F. Heck, even with my heater on in my bedroom, it's only about 51F. (The HD, however, is 55F; I don't know how warm the fans and other stuff that needs lubricant that's not cold is).

How much potential damage am I looking at here (from the times I used it in the living room, and/or now)? And would this have been a problem with my old G3 desktop?

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Answer 12

Rod Hagen

Level 7

32,000 points

Dec 12, 2009 4:55 AM in response to LeaperBP

There is an interesting article on the use of computers in cold storage areas at http://www.lxe.com/uploadedFiles/pdf/White_Papers/WhitePaper-ColdStorageComputer s.pdf that might give you some clues, Leaper.

I personally doubt that you will have much trouble at 42ºF (if you can stop your fingers from shivering so much that you can't hit the right keys on the keyboard!)

Nevertheless the sudden change in temperature that occurs when you turn it on could certainly cause some stress and reduce life - some components like CPUs and GPUs are going to heat up very quickly and the lower starting point is going to increase thermal stress if it has been off. I'd be more worried about this than the effects on HD bearings or fans (the operating temperature range of Seagate notebook drives , for example, ranges from 0ºC / 32ºF to 60ºC)

Lithium Ion batteries work quite well down to about 0ºC as well, though they can suffer some adverse effects on charge life below this.

The optical drive may be more of an issue. Many seem to have a minimum recommended operating temp a little higher than HDs - Matshita slot load opticals specify 5º C (41ºF) which is obviously very close to your room temperature, though they will warm up reasonably quickly when the computer is actually turned on.

LED screens seem to bottom out well under freezing point, so should not be a serious issue.

I'm sure there must be some simple solutions in the form of heated thermal pads and the like out there , though , for situations like yours. Heck, you can even buy electric blankets for cats these days! You'd only really need to use such a thing for a few minutes before starting up, given the amount of warmth that the computer will soon generate for itself, I would think.

Cheers

Rod

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Answer 13

LeaperBP Author

Level 1

1 points

Dec 12, 2009 5:28 AM in response to Rod Hagen

Rod Hagen wrote:

I personally doubt that you will have much trouble at 42ºF

Hopefully not. Things did happen that, looking back, may have been due to the cold (the failure of the battery to charge for a while, and the long pause between pressing the power button and the startup chime sounding). Hopefully that's the extent of the effect it had, now that I know better.

(It was even colder outside some of the nights when I used my computer in my living room - however, I don't think that an eight degree temp difference outside necessarily means an equal amount inside.)

Nevertheless the sudden change in temperature that occurs when you turn it on could certainly cause some stress and reduce life - some components like CPUs and GPUs are going to heat up very quickly and the lower starting point is going to increase thermal stress if it has been off. I'd be more worried about this than the effects on HD bearings or fans (the operating temperature range of Seagate notebook drives , for example, ranges from 0ºC / 32ºF to 60ºC)

Hmm. How much stress/life reduction? I don't know how many times I used the computer when the living room was that cold, since I didn't have an idea of temperature until recently. Maybe two, three days (assuming consistent 20 degree difference between outside and inside; before that, it would've been only a few degrees below 50F inside). I powered it up twice max each time (once from power off, once from sleep).

The optical drive may be more of an issue. Many seem to have a minimum recommended operating temp a little higher than HDs - Matshita slot load opticals specify 5º C (41ºF) which is obviously very close to your room temperature, though they will warm up reasonably quickly when the computer is actually turned on.

I didn't use the optical drive when it was out in the cold, so hopefully that's no big deal.

I'm sure there must be some simple solutions in the form of heated thermal pads and the like out there , though , for situations like yours. Heck, you can even buy electric blankets for cats these days! You'd only really need to use such a thing for a few minutes before starting up, given the amount of warmth that the computer will soon generate for itself, I would think.

That's a good idea. Another thing to consider.

By the way, a question that just occurred to me: when the manual says that the minimum operating temperature is 50F, does that mean the ambient temperature or the temperature of the computer itself?

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Answer 14

Travis A.

Level 6

14,985 points

Dec 12, 2009 12:15 PM in response to LeaperBP

Following up from a response to another question: it's been very cold in my area of late.

How cold is cold? 😉 We're at -46ºC with the windchill here right now. That's about -50ºF. No, I don't live at the North Pole, but sometimes it can seem that way. It is abnormally cold though right now, normal daytime highs are around -10ºC at this time of year.

In any case, I have transported my MBP to school in these temperatures. What I usually will do when it gets this cold, though, is use it for a few minutes before I need to take it with me. I heat it up to around 50ºC by watching flash video or something like that, and then slip it in my Neoprene sleeve and put that into my backpack. Into the car it goes (that has been warming up for probably 10-15 minutes and is still probably only at around -5ºC in the interior). Then there's about a 10 minute walk from my parking spot to the building where my classes are. I usually arrive about 15 minutes early, and I'll let it warm up in the classroom for that time period before I open it. Watching iStat, I don't think I've ever seen it at lower than ~17ºC.

So, you can do it, but do keep it in a bag that retains some of its warmth for a while after it is put to sleep. The condensation is really what I would be worried about, if I were you. Temperatures of 41ºF could possibly induce condensation in the MBP, if there is any amount of humidity in the surrounding air. When the MBP heats up to normal operating temperature, that heat will warm the air immediately surrounding the MBP. And when you get warmth meeting coldness, you get condensation of moisture from the air.

--Travis

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Answer 15

joeuu

Level 5

5,089 points

Dec 12, 2009 3:23 PM in response to LeaperBP

Obviously, the answer is to never turn it off.

Keep it running 24/7, dvd's and all. Might keep itself warm and stable, just like [this|http://www.kcra.com/news/787125/detail.html].

8^)

Joe

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