Previous 1 2 Next 15 Replies Latest reply: Dec 31, 2009 10:18 AM by digibud
PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
In trying to upgrade to 10.5 on a MacBook Pro 17" - 2.16 GHz Intel, I had problems. Apple genius found I needed a new hard drive. Computer returned from Apple with a new hard drive and OS 10.5.8 and seemed to be working fine (Keyboard and Airport access normal).

I had a recent clone (Carbon Copy Cloner) with OS 10.4.11 that boots and works fine. I used Repair Disk and Repair Permissions on the Clone with OSX 10.4 install disk. (everything seemed ok) I used Repair Disk and Repair Permissions on the clean install using OSX 10.5 install disk. Repair was clean, Repair Permissions continued to show some mismatched permissions after 2 tries (all in parts of the OSX 10.5 clean install with no new apps or files added). NOW MY PROBLEM.

Using Migration Assistant, I brought just my Home Account folder (with a name not used in the clean Install), all the Apps, Files and Folders, (Library was checked and grayed out) with all Network Settings, Time Zone, and Shared Settings. The Migration seemed to go well. I booted up and it seemed OK. I opened Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, and Powerpoint and put them in the Doc. I did the same for Microsoft Work, Excel, and Powerpoint. All seemed normal. I needed to go to the Internet and found that I could not. Airport could not see my networks. It seemed to be OFF and not want to accept the Turn Airport ON click. I rebooted my network modem and Airport Extreme and rebooted the computer. This time the Keyboard wouldn't work - a problem I had earlier when I tried to install 10.5 directly onto my 10.4.11 computer.

I attached an external keyboard. After identifying it, all works fine from the external keyboard. However, Airport still doesn't turn on. The migration also seems to have seriously changed things in my Network Settings - even hardwired - and won't let me get to the internet even hardwired to my cable modem. If I go back and boot up on the 10.4.11 clone, all works well.

Using the 10.5 install disk, I tried Repair Disk, but my volume could not be unmounted. I did Verify Disk and the volume appeared to be OK. I Repaired Permissions and I get hundreds of "Group differs" for Application Support with hp plug-ins (I use an HP multi-function) - "should be 80, group is 20". There were also "Permissions differ" with what appears to be the same issues I had on the clean Install - /"Airport Base Station Agent.app", "Airport utility", Front Row", "Private Frameworks/Back Row.Framework", "ITunes.app", . It comes back "Permission Repair Complete". A follow-up Permissions repair, showed no problems and reported "Permissions Repair Complete."

When I bootup on the 10.5.8 OS, I still can't use the keyboard and can't get to either Airport or a hardwire connection to my cable modem. Back to the clone, it's all fine, but might need either (a connection to a neighbors network) or a reboot of my cable modem to get a valid IP address.

Is there anything else I can do to try to repair this besides a clean install of OS10.5? Either Migration Assistant did a corrupt migration or I have some 3rd party app(s) that are incompatible.

If I do a Clean Install, how can I best bring all the files from the Clone over to 10.5 without having to reinstall each one and track down the all the Serial Numbers (many on e-mails from years back)? Is there a list somewhere of 10.5 incompatibilities? Maybe I just need to erase or upgrade a file or two on the clone and the Migration will be a success. I have also heard that there may be issues with various Versions of 10.5.X that could make one work and then next upgrade not work. How do I even find the old revisions. Do I need to upgrade one at a time?

I really want to use 10.5, because it allows me to use some other recent updated software for work that would be helpful.

GOD BLESS CARBON COPY CLONER. I THINK IT'S TIME FOR ME TO DONATE.

Can anyone help me through this?

Thanks,
Dave

MacBook Pro 17" - Model 1,2 - 2.16 GHz, Mac OS X (10.5.8), 2 GB RAM
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    If your machine boots and works with the Tiger clone, then boot with clone, wipe the new HD. and clone the clone to it. Boot with the Leopard install disc and install, using the upgrade option, on top of Tiger. On restart, launch Software Update, install all noted updates, repeat until there aren't any more, repair permissions, and restart. Now the only differences between the two should be the OS. All user and network settings should be the same.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    Baltwo,

    Thanks. I'm not hopeful that what you suggest will work in this case. Initially, my system was working fine with 10.4.11. I cloned with CCC and then Installed 10.5 over the existing drive. The install appeared to go well, but on restart, the keyboard was not accepted. I installed all upgrades and repaired permissions using the 10.5 install disk. The keyboard still didn't work.

    I took the computer to the Apple Genius bar and they were about to do an Archive and Install when they noted that my hard drive was "failing". So they went out and replaced the hard drive and installed 10.5.8. It appeared to work fine. I then used Migration Assistant from the clone to the new operating system. I now have the same problem with the keyboard not working on the 10.5.8 hard drive, but working fine when I boot up on the 10.4.11 clone.

    My guess is that there is some 3rd party file or files that are compatible with 10.4.11 but not compatible with 10.5.8.

    If, after repairing with DiskWarrior and Tech Tool Pro, I still have the problem, I'll try what you suggest, but I am not hopeful that it will work. When I clone back tot he 10.5 hard drive, it will bring any problem files with it.

    The next step would be a clean install and then a drag and drop from the clone with a re-install on things that require it. That will be a major undertaking,but I am afraid that I may need to do it.

    Do you have any suggestions for how to find what files might be incompatible with 10.5.8? Is there some way to migrate files in small groups? What if I used Time machine, so that I could easily go back if a Migration step was a problem?

    Thanks again. Your suggestion is a good one and I'll try it, but I already have some indication that it won't work this time.

    Best Regards,
    Dave
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    If the machine boots with the Tiger clone and the keyboard is accepted, then it's viable and doing an upgrade on top of it should pose no issues with Leopard. I did that type of installation for over a year while beta-testing Leopard on the unsupported G4 and it never failed.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    Baltwo,

    I'm afraid that I have a new one for you. I followed the process you laid out and after repairing permissions, I still have a keyboard that is dead. Everything else seems fine.

    The problem is not the clone, since the exact same thing happened when I was working from the original files on the disk. There must be something in my 10.4.11 system that is causing the 10.5.8 system to ignore the built in MCP keyboard. External keyboards are recognized and work fine.

    Any other suggestions ?

    My next step if I don't get any better suggestions is to wipe the hard drive and do a clean install of 10.5. Then the question is what is the easiest way to bring things from the clone to the 10.5.8 system in a way that lets me easily go back if I bring over the file, or files that are causing this problem. Any suggestions? Is this a good place to use Time Machine?

    Thanks,
    Dave
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    One last thing that may give a clue. After repairing permission, repeated the process. A group of problems continue to show up, although the "Permission repair complete" note is shown. The problems were in

    Core Services/Airport Base Station Agent.app/....
    Utilities/Airport Utility.app/...
    A group from Core SErvices/Front Row.app/...
    Private Frameworks/Back Row.framework/....
    Core Services/Menu Extras/RemoteDesktop.menu/...+

    I had Repaired Permissions on the Clone and they all cleared.

    Thanks,
    Dave

    P.S. What are Haxies and APES and how do I know if I have any installed? I have heard that they are a problem with Leopard.
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    I don't have a laptop, so I suspect the keyboard is also hosed. Boot with your Apple Hardware Test disc and run the extended tests. AFAIK, that includes laptop keyboards, but I might be mistaken. If you can isolate it to the keyboard as a hardware issue, another trip to the Genius is in order, especially since ext keyboards work.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    Hardware test, using the disk that came with the laptop, came up clean. I expected it to, since the keyboard works fine until I boot up with 10.5. I can make it work and make it not by alternately booting up in 10.4 .11 and 10.5.x

    I think a visit to the Genius Bar still makes sense to see what they suggest about making my files compatible with OSX 10.5. In OS9 days there was a program that allowed you to start up with Extensions OFF and then to start turning them on one group at at time to find the problem one. Can you start up 10.x with only Apple software operating and is there any utility that lets you find an incompatible "extension"?
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    Sorry, I missed that it was working with Tiger. Does it work when booting with the Leopard install disc or in Leopard when booted into safe mode (basically with non-Apple extensions off)? See http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1564 for details. How about when trying with a new admin user account? The issue, as best I can determine, is with your system and not peculiar to Leopard; otherwise, there would be many such posts, but I don't recall any.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    The keyboard works with the Leopard Install disk. It works with a Clean Leopard install. It works with my Tiger system or the clone of my Tiger system. It doesn't work if I install Leopard over the Tiger total system with files. It also doesn't work if I take a clean Leopard install and use Migration Assistant from a Tiger clone and migrate everything it allows.

    I did try Safe Mode on the 10.5.8 version that had been installed over the working 10.4.11 system and files. It still didn't work.

    It can't be the account, because it locks up before it gets that far. I can't even type in username and password without an external keyboard.

    I agree that it is likely something peculiar with my system, but I think the problem is how that peculiar thing interacts with Leopard, but not with Tiger. I have an appointment with the Genius Bar for tomorrow. Let's see if they come up with anything.
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    Thanks for clarifying and updating. Then, this is way beyond my knowledge and something for the sleuths at Apple to investigate.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    Unfortunately, this problem has brought the Discussion Forum and the Apple Genius Bar to its knees. I must have some systemwide setting from some application that is corrupted and causing the problem with 10.5.8. Migration Assistant brings the problem setting over and installing 10.5 over 10.4.11 just uses the bad setting. In discussion with the Genius Bar at my local Apple Store we both decided that the only way to make the upgrade was to do a clean install of 10.5, do all the available Software Upgrades, copy my documents over, and then install each application one at a time.

    This approach is time consuming, and requires you to have all the Serial numbers for the installs. A word of suggestion to everyone out there is that any time you install a new application, put a folder into the Application Folder with the name of the app and inside put a document that includes the information you need to install it. I could have easily saved 25 hours of digging around if I had done that. The other thing, of course, is a bootable clone I had one and it saved me in more ways that I can list.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    I had to do a clean install and then drag and drop my files and then re-install all my apps. That's the hard way, but it worked.
  • baltwo Level 9 Level 9 (61,945 points)
    Thanks for the feedback. Bootable clones that are tested frequently are the best route. Good computing.
  • PianomanDave Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)
    Baltwo,

    Thanks for all the help and encouragement. Now that I am using 10..5.8, I plan to set up Time Machine. Is there still a value in having a separate bootable clone made every now and then, or does a good Time Machine history make that unnecessary?

    Thanks,
    Dave
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