External Floppy Drive

Question

External Floppy Drive

Okay, I needed a way to get data stored on 3.5" floppy disks created on my 512K onto my G4, so I bought this Imation USB Floppy Drive Model #D353FUE someone on this or some other forum suggested. I never connected it till today because my 512K was still working, I hadn't even decided what system or form to convert the data into, my hard drive is practically full and I hate switching around to mess with the slave drive, and most of all I was afraid this floppy drive either wouldn't work at all, wouldn't be for the type of disks I have (my Mac 512K Enhanced takes DS DD but won't take DS HD), or it would work for awhile and then quit when the system was upgraded.

It seems some or all of the above has occurred. When I installed the startup disk I saw it was for OS 9 but it seemed to go into Applications all right. I can't find it in the folder, but when I try to install again it says it is there...on my hard drive...supposedly in Applications. (There is only one Applications folder--there isn't another in the OS 9 folder.)

Anyhow, that isn't the first problem. So when I connect the device to my USB hub, which works fine for my printer and anything else I've ever had occasion to use, an error comes up on screen saying the device needs more power than is available, and to connect it to an adaptor or to a USB device plugged in to a power source.

Now, this drive doesn't even have a place to plug in an adaptor. My USB port didn't come with an adaptor. It's always worked fine with the computer cable connection, but I saw there was a plug for an adaptor and a power level (DC 7.5V, 2.1A) so I got one of those adjustable adaptors, set it to 7.5V, and plugged it in. When I started up again, up comes the same complaint that there's not enough power for the device. I tried it with the only two tips which would fit on the hub's connector and neither worked. So then I pulled the plug on the USB hub and plugged the device DIRECTLY onto the USB port on the back of the Mac, and I STILL get the same message, the USB device cannot be used as there is not enough power!

So anyhow I filled in a form at Imation's support site to try to find out if they even still support this silly thing, but if they won't give me time of day does anyone have other suggestions or shall I just retype every friggin bit of data by hand? Thanks.

Power Mac G4, Mac OS X (10.4.11), Hard Drive 57.26 GB, Internal Slave Drive 232.86 GB

Posted on Jan 8, 2010 1:20 AM

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Answer 1

Jan 8, 2010 8:12 AM in response to Cornelia Shields

The only drives that can read the disks made by your 512K Mac are the ones built into a platinum/beige Mac. \[The last of these was the beige G3.] These drives feature a two speed motor that was never adopted by any other drive manufacturer. In addition, if these are single-sided 400K disks, you need to be running Mac OS OLDER than OS 8, as support for 400K disks was removed in OS 8.0.

To power the external USB floppy unit you have, it would need to be plugged directly into a USB port on the chassis of your Mac, or plugged into a Powered USB Hub.

Unpowered USB Hubs, in my opinion, are not worth the powder to blow them to he||.

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Answer 2

Limnos

Level 10

427,193 points

Jan 8, 2010 8:27 AM in response to Cornelia Shields

So then I pulled the plug on the USB hub and plugged the device DIRECTLY onto the USB port on the back of the Mac, and I STILL get the same message, the USB device cannot be used as there is not enough power!

Did you plug this into an original USB port or one on a PCI card added later? If the latter case it is slightly possible the PCI USB card isn't supplying enough power.

So anyhow I filled in a form at Imation's support site to try to find out if they even still support this silly thing, but if they won't give me time of day does anyone have other suggestions or shall I just retype every friggin bit of data by hand?

Get as much information as you can about the disk format. As Grant observes there are certain older formats that the USB floppy readers can't handle. If your floppy is one of those you might check if there is a Mac user group in your area. I know, for example, I still have a IICi that boots to OS 7.5.5 as well as a G3, both with floppy readers. For a while I was a real resource at my former employer for everybody who needed to rescue data from old floppy disks.

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Answer 3

Jan 9, 2010 2:53 AM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

The USB Hub does fine running my printer. The camera, when connected with a cable, runs slow. Past about 1,000 pictures, so slow that the battery dies before data can be transferred, so I got a memory card reader. The iPod complains about it being a second-rate connection, but works. This USB drive won't even show up. If it really won't read these type of disks, it seems I wasted time and money yet again!

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Answer 4

Jan 9, 2010 3:03 AM in response to Limnos

This drive, I plugged right into one of the two USB ports that came originally on the Mac--the ones that do FINE powering the hub with one port and the keyboard and mouse with another! It still complained of lack of power. Thanks for the help, as you can see I am rather lost.

I used all kinds of disks but I am pretty sure none were 400K. I remember when the Mac was enhanced, reformatting some disks to hold more. Here is the information on the two main kinds of disks used. The disk with the old version of Microsoft File that I need is Kodak, not Sony or 3M, but should be similar.

Sony 3.5" (90 mm) Micro Floppydisk
MFD-2DD Q'ty 10
Double-Sided, Double Density Double Track 135 TPI

3M Double Sided, Double Density 3.5"
Capacity: Unformatted 1.0 MB
Apple Macintosh Formatted 800KB

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Answer 5

Jan 9, 2010 12:26 PM in response to Cornelia Shields

plugged right into one of the two USB ports that came originally on the Mac

The ports built into your Mac provide up to 500 milliAmps of power. If this device complains when plugged into one of the chassis ports with no other devices on that port, it is not getting that power for some reason. Some possible reasons:

• defective unit or cable.
• use of USB extension cord that is too long.
• the cable was pulled sideways before the test and was not making good contact.
• one of the ports on your Mac is worn or bent, and no longer making a good enough connection to provide enough power with the cables/connectors you used.

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Answer 6

Jan 9, 2010 1:20 PM in response to Cornelia Shields

There are only two types of physical diskettes:
• older Double Density diskette (2D/2DD) unformatted capacity of up to 1 Megabyte
• newer High Density diskette (HD/HDD) unformatted capacity of up to 2 Megabyte
N.B. the oxides used are not the same, and the diskettes are NOT interchangeable.

I used all kinds of disks but I am pretty sure none were 400K.

400K discs were written one one side of a Double Density diskette (2D/2DD). Originally, they used the Macintosh File System (MFS), a flat file system (no folders).

800K diskettes were written on both sides of a Double Density diskette (2D/2DD). They used the Hierarchical File System (HFS) that supports files in folders. This was introduced with the ROM of the Mac Plus, and was also available as part of the upgraded (loaded into RAM) Operating System of your older Mac if you moved to a version released after the Mac Plus.

"Macintosh disks are formatted in a manner that allows a more efficient use of disk space than most other microprocessor formatting schemes. The tracks on each side are divided into 5 groups of 16 tracks each, and each group of tracks is accessed at a different rotational speed from the other groups. Those at the edge of the disk are accessed at slower rotational speeds than those toward the center, so the linear speed of the media as it passes under the drive head remains \[nearly] constant."

-- from "Technical Introduction to the Macintosh Family" copyright Apple 1987

This means a 2DD diskette formatted on a Mac (with its variable-speed motor) holds 800K.
The exact same diskette 2DD formatted on an IBM compatible (with a fixed-speed motor) holds only 720K formatted.

Macintosh 400K and 800K diskettes are readable ONLY on the diskette drives shipped as built-in drives in beige Macintosh models. The drives used in all PCs (such as IBM-compatibles) and aftermarket USB drives cannot read 400K or 800K Macintosh-formatted diskettes.

With diskettes introduced AFTER the Mac IIcx, High density diskettes (HD) could be used, and the Macintosh High Density format had the same number of sectors as the one used for PCs. So if your antique Mac were more modern, an aftermarket USB diskette drive would be a great choice, and Mac-formatted 1.4 MB diskettes would be readable on that drive, once it was working correctly.

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Answer 7

Jan 9, 2010 1:37 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

All right, I have a Macintosh SE/30, which I haven't really tried but as far as I know works, which I got for this purpose--an intermediate step between the 512K and the G4. I also have some brand-new HD disks. So, technically, IF the SE/30 works, and IF I can transfer the data from the one type of disk to the other, and IF I can get an external floppy drive which actually works on the G4 (I'm pretty sure I tried this one directly into the port with and without the extension cable but I can check again) I can transfer the data to the G4 without typing it all again?

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Answer 8

Jan 9, 2010 1:56 PM in response to Cornelia Shields

The SE/30 has the later Mac diskette drive that has the ability to read, write and format:

• 400K or 800K Mac-formatted data on 2DD media
• 720K IBM-formatted data on 2DD media "MS-DOS format"
• ProDos (Apple II) format
• 1.4 MB Mac-formatted data on HD media
• 1.4 MB IBM-formatted data on HD media

That drive was so much better than the older ones, it was referred to at the time as the "SuperDrive" \[ a Term later used to describe an optical disc (CD) reader/writer that could also read and write DVDs]. I guess that dates me.

The SE/30 drive reads the second punched hole in a HD diskette so that it knows which type has been inserted, and will only try to format true to type. Data written to the wrong type can be unreadable in as little as a few minutes, so it is not wise to try to "fool" the drive by covering the hole or punching a new hole. The oxides on the two types are different.

You could transfer your files to High Density diskettes and read them in your USB diskette reader, once it gets working.

Message was edited by: Grant Bennet-Alder

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Answer 9

Jan 9, 2010 7:29 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

My 512K has an external drive which works fine with the old disks. Would it work to connect this drive to the SE/30 and transfer the information from the old disks to those with the new format?

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Answer 10

Jan 10, 2010 9:46 AM in response to Cornelia Shields

The Mac 512K has a 400K (single-sided) diskette drive in the chassis, and a 19-pin connector for an external diskette drive.
The Mac 512Ke has an 800K (double-sided) diskette drive in the chassis, and a 19-pin connector for an external diskette drive.

The SE/30 has an internal 40MB or 80 MB Hard Drive inside, and an external 25-pin SCSI connector for up to seven additional external SCSI hard drives. An internal FDHD "SuperDrive" diskette drive (capable of reading all formats) is built-in to the chassis. It also has a 19-pin connector for an external diskette drive.

You can attach any of the three models of external diskette drive (400K, 800K, or FDHD) to any Mac with the 19-pin connector, but the computer has to have the extra chips (that are present in the SE/30) to be able to treat an FDHD external drive as such. An external 400K or 800K diskette drive will operate correctly in all cases.

Booted from its internal Hard drive, an SE/30 should be able to read and write to all of its diskette drive (internal and external) without issue, treating each drive as its correct type.

Making the copies:

Manipulating a complete diskette, by dragging its Icon to another diskette, instructs your Mac to do a Disk-to-Disk copy. This may give you an exact 800K replica of your original diskette, which would be unreadable in your USB diskette drive.

To copy the files from a 400K or 800K diskette onto a 1.2 MB diskette, you should open the Icon for the 400K or 800K diskette, select the files/folders you want to copy, and drag the files and folders (individually or as a group) to the destination diskette.

As you know, if you insert a new, blank, diskette, the Mac will report it as unreadable and invite you to format it, no matter what program(s) are running. There will be a pull-down or pop-up menu that will show all available formats for that diskette in that drive.

Message was edited by: Grant Bennet-Alder

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Answer 11

Jan 10, 2010 12:59 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Thanks, that's what I was hoping, and I believe what was discussed at the time I got the SE/30. I just got hopeful of being able to skip a step there. So now my only problem is getting the floppy drive to work on the G4.

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Answer 12

direwolf8

Level 4

1,286 points

Jan 15, 2010 11:08 AM in response to Cornelia Shields

I saw there was a plug for an adaptor and a power level (DC 7.5V, 2.1A) so I got one of those >adjustable adaptors, set it to 7.5V, and plugged it in

I've never seen a consumer type adjustable power adapter that would deliver anywhere near 2.1A. Most of them are rated around 500 ma, less than 1/4 of what you need, and the current it can deliver varies with the output voltage. The voltages marked on the switch are nominal, and since it's just switching in a resistor, highly inaccurate most of the time. That power adapter is completely useless for this.

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Answer 13

Jan 15, 2010 12:30 PM in response to direwolf8

I wondered if it was doing anything. There's no way to test it, since the USB hub lights up when connected to the computer, so I don't even know if it got any power from the adaptor.

Still no word from the manufacturers of the floppy drive, as to whether that may be defective.

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