ProRes vs HDV, actual advantages?

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Level 1

8 points

ProRes vs HDV, actual advantages?

We have been capturing and editing in HDV. Alot of heavy compositing, motion work, etc. We have been setting the render control to ProRes while working within an HDV timeline.

I have seen a lot of people who capture ProRes right off the bat, and do all their work in ProRes. There are claims that you get better effect handling and editing efficiency by staying in ProRes.

Have there actually been any tests out there that prove I should work entirely in ProRes? rather than just render my HDV timeline as ProRes?

There are so many opinions out there that it is hard to decide what I should do. I have done tests with ProRes vs HDV and I am not noticing drastic differences in working with the two. Yet, when I read on the boards, there are tons of people saying ProRes yields better effects and render times.

I understand the technical issues as to why ProRes is the better format for post-production (long gop, i-frames, etc etc)....but I'm just not actually seeing much of a difference while working between the two formats!

Can anybody convince me with some facts as to why I should work in ProRes as opposed to a ProRes rendered HDV timeline?

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.8), 2.4Ghz, Radeon x1600, 3GB Ram

Posted on Feb 11, 2010 9:55 AM

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Answer 1

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:00 AM in response to John Speaker

Where pro res will offer significant advantages is when you REALLY need a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec which HDV is decidedly not. However, if your viewing and/or audience doesn't see any measurable difference, go with what works for you and your clients.

Short answer: If you are not seeing any advantage to using ProRes source files over HDV, then don't bother converting at ingest.

x

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Answer 2

RedTruck

Level 4

2,145 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:01 AM in response to John Speaker

Export time will be faster in ProRes (for one). The only reasons to stay in HDV are, 1. you need to save hard drive space. Solution: get a bigger hard drive - they're cheap these days. 2. You need to lay back out to HDV tape (for some unknown reason). Solution: don't lay off to HDV tape. It's an acquisition format, not an editing or delivery format.

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Answer 3

John Speaker Author

Level 1

8 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:03 AM in response to Studio X

Thank you, great answer, I will probably continue with what has been working.

Is there any reason I'm not seeing much benefit, yet other people are raving about switching to ProRes? Maybe people like to exaggerate a bit?

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Answer 4

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:15 AM in response to John Speaker

Maybe people like to exaggerate a bit?

There is some of this no doubt. There are also a bunch of people who believe that anything larger, heavier, more demanding of resources MUST be better. This is the underlying attraction of people who shoot on a Flip Mino then edit using ProResHQ - what a joke.

If you start in HDV, you will ALWAYS have that 4:2:0 15 frame GOP mpeg2 nonsense at the point of capture. Going to ProRes does not improve the quality of the original material. GI/GO.

x

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Answer 5

RedTruck

Level 4

2,145 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:14 AM in response to RedTruck

It won't affect the quality of the footage you shot, but it will affect the workflow. I worked in HDV for years before ProRes came out, and I find it easier and less problem causing to capture HDV as ProRes. Storage is never an issue for me, so I'm a bit spoiled, but my company abandoned capturing HDV as HDV a few months ago, and it's been easier since. But if you notice no difference, then by all means, do what works for you.

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Answer 6

John Speaker Author

Level 1

8 points

Feb 11, 2010 10:33 AM in response to RedTruck

Thanks again for all the great info.

I plan to edit in HDV and use ProRes rendering.

BUT...
If anybody has anything else to add, I'm all ears. I'll switch to ProRes in a second if it can ramp up my speed and efficiency during post. I heard countless claims of this, but I'm just not seeing a difference myself!

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Answer 7

gogiangigo

Level 6

8,035 points

Feb 11, 2010 11:03 AM in response to John Speaker

If I am grading in Color for example, I would not think twice as I'd need to convert the HDV stuff into ProRes.
There are in my experience more pros than cons when going to ProRes.

Here some reading for you:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/when_to_staynative.html

ps. Forgot this:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/capture_hdv_prores_fwbalis.html

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Answer 8

John Speaker Author

Level 1

8 points

Feb 12, 2010 9:29 AM in response to gogiangigo

Has anybody made the switch from editing HDV in an HDV timeline with ProRes Renders to editing entirely in ProRes?

What's the advantage of doing this? Is there a real advantage to a complete ProRes workflow rather than rendering HDV as ProRes?

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Answer 9

Feb 13, 2010 7:22 AM in response to John Speaker

I had some material that I left in HDV and was editing. Can't remember exactly why, but I decided to take the media on my HD, convert them into ProRes material, reimported them into FCP7 and was shocked at how much faster the render completed. I didn't get out a stopwatch and time it or anything like that but I went from several minutes to a few seconds on the render. I think what I saw bears out on what others are saying here. The reason to move to ProRes is for the workflow and not for much higher quality. I'm just starting to move to ProRes (been doing HDV for a couple of years now) and hope that doing so will speed up my workflow.

Just a few thoughts from a ProRes noob

dave

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Answer 10

Feb 14, 2010 6:41 AM in response to John Speaker

I switched totally from HDV to ProRes last year, including even switching to AVCHD cameras (I had a Sony V1U, and now have two Panasonic HMC-150s).

The advantages for me were huge. When shooting HDV on tape, I almost never had a complete one hour MiniDV tape without at least 1 or 2 dropouts. Shooting AVCHD to SDHC cards, I've completed hundreds of hours of footage and never had a single frame dropped.

I log and transfer to FCP using Pro Res right from the start. No waiting for 'Conforming HDV'. I can put my footage on a timeline and start editing right away; much faster and smoother throughout the whole process.

The only disadvantage I can see to ProRes are larger files, but as mentioned above, storage is cheap these days.

I'm not suggesting you should go as far as switching your entire acquisition format (cameras, etc.), but I would at least try capturing your HDV footage as ProRes for one short project, and see if you notice any differences in speed and/or smoother workflow while editing and rendering, etc.

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Answer 11

Feb 14, 2010 11:24 AM in response to John Speaker

I too shoot on HDV but only edited once in HDV and when the conform to DVD process took 2 days to process, I went to downconverting to SD on ingest. But now 3 years later, I'm working in ProRes LT from my HDV tapes because I found that to be a fair compromise between space and quality. I'm even debating doing my next project in ProRes Proxy because it will be a 4 camera multicam shoot. However, and maybe this is just my setup, but my current project is just over 45 minutes and every single shot I've color corrected even slightly, and it takes 4 HOURS to render my whole sequence if I delete all the render files. 4 hours for 47 minutes of footage? I do it overnight, so I don't really care, but when speed is concerned, that doesn't scream fast to me when it's just a simple 3-way color corrector and broadcast safe filter.

-Brian

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Answer 12

Alchroma

Level 7

23,918 points

Feb 14, 2010 4:42 PM in response to Red Jacket Mike

I log and transfer to FCP using Pro Res right from the start. No waiting >for 'Conforming HDV'. I can put my footage on a timeline and start editing >right away; much faster and smoother throughout the whole process.

Yup. 🙂

Al

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Answer 13

Feb 15, 2010 9:55 AM in response to Brian Kaempen

are you doing a multicam now? with a multicam you need to remember to collapse it before adding your filters, or you're adding them to (and rendering) all the angles in the multicam.

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Answer 14

Feb 16, 2010 7:29 PM in response to John Speaker

Why are you rendering in ProRes? What is your final output?

ProRes does not add anything to the game at that point, all it does is add another required transcode with the resulting losses.

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Answer 15

Feb 17, 2010 1:00 AM in response to John Speaker

FWIW In the old days (pre ProRes) when working with HDV I'd usually do the picture edit on an HDV timeline then use Media Manager to convert to DVCProHD - a higher bit rate but very stable and significantly easier to work with in terms of rendering etc. when applying effects. It also works well on my six year old G5 with FCP5 which I still use occasionally (mainly for Compressor which is the only version that seems bug free).

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