For the film scoring guys!!

Hi

Starting to move from completely from Digital Performer to just using Logic. But have a question for the film scoring people here


In DP, I can go through a scene and add markers to hit points and cuts. Then I can set the importance of each marker and set how close I need to hit it (say I allow 3 frames early, 2 late). Then there is a screen called calculate tempo for locked markers. This lists a bunch of tempos and how close it is to each of the markers. Showing how many it hits and how many it misses and by how many frames.

I know Logic does not have a screen like this, so my question is : What method do you use to find a base tempo to hit a bunch of markers in a scene? I know you can then change time signatures and put some minor tempo changes in to hit particular markers. But how do you start to find a tempo that will be close enough to start you off?

Thanks,

Guess as far as tempo calculations go I have been a bit spoilt!!!

Mac Pro 8 core, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X (10.6.1), Apogee Symphony 16 DA-x/AD-x, Genelec, Doepfer Keys, Lexicon PCM96 Reverb

Posted on Mar 19, 2010 5:00 AM

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7 replies

Mar 19, 2010 7:04 AM in response to SimonMcA

I've tried all sorts of ways of doing this and I'll explain what works best for me, but it might not be quite what you want.

I don't work with an average tempo at all because, essentially scenes are edited totally randomly so it's down to luck as to what synchs and what doesn't. However the DP feature you describe does sound useful.

Anyway the way I discovered you can do this is to auto detect scene markers (and add any it misses), then use the beat mapping feature to draw in the tempo changes which lock to the scene markers. This means you can work in beats and bars as normal, and everything will always hit the scene change perfectly: it makes things very efficient. However this may only be good for sound design or less rhythmic music because obviously the tempos change between scenes and don't lend themselves well to an even flow.

If you're unfamiliar with the processes I mentioned then...

1/ Go to 'Global Tracks' and auto detect scene markers in the video column.
2/ Check they are ll right and add any it misses in the Event List Markers (make sure you use scene markers not ordinary ones)
3/ Now in Global Tracks make sure the beat mapping feature is displayed and you can draw a line from the scene marker to the beat/bar you want (consult the manual on this process it's alittle strange at first).
4/ Do this for every scene marker and you will end up with a perfect tempo map of your video. You will be able to choose how close or far you want each point to synch so you should be able to keep the tempo fairly consistent.

Practice it at first until you get the hang, then go for it. i hope this makes sense... I've asked about this kind of thing here before and not had much input so I'd love to hear any other ways people do this.

Hope this maybe helps...

Mar 21, 2010 10:09 PM in response to SimonMcA

I've been keeping a computer running OS9 and the shareware program CUE to find my tempos. I wish there was an update to a modern operating system of this program. I suspect every composer and music editor would use it. It's brilliant. ( http://www.olypen.com/rickj/cue.html)

There's nothing in Logic that will help find a tempo. I've actually just got a copy of DP for this very function although I haven't gotten it to work yet.

It seems the fine folks at Logic don't recognize the need as many people simply change tempos to get their hits. Which probably means they don't record with live musicians much.

If you figure something out in Logic I hope you'll share it.

Mar 22, 2010 1:24 AM in response to emjaym

Generally speaking, there are a great deal of features from DP that relate to film scoring that many of us would kill to see in Logic. And not just from DP, Pro Tools as well. Here are some examples:

Setting your song start in a Pro Tools session is as flexible as you want - meaning that the tempo map can begin wherever you want in the session, with minutes (even hours) of free-timed usable space before you hit bar one and the metronome starts counting. This is invaluable for working on feature film cues. Say you are writing a cue that plays near the end of, say reel 4 of a feature. In Logic, you have a couple of choices.. You either import the video reel, get it to start at TC 4 hours (since it's reel 4), and then just spot the start of your cue way down later into your timeline, and start writing your music there. This is not too bad a way of working, except that it means that when it comes to scoring, your cue starts at a ridiculous bar number, like bar 1356 or something. It's not an insurmountable annoyance, but it does unnecessarily overcomplicate the communication that follows
with the people doing the transcription of the scores, and also makes each master Logic project per cue have a confusing inconsistency with the eventual corresponding Pro Tools session you inevitably work with later to record the orchestra. It also means that using a feature like freeze tracks becomes very unwieldy, because if you want to freeze a track it will generate a file all the way from the song start, taking far too long and wasting way too much drive space.
The other option is to just use the video sync settings in Logic so that the video reel starts playback much later in the film, so that what is actually bar 1 in Logic actually is the start of the cue. However, when you do this, you can't watch the earlier parts of that reel within that Logic Project.. This can be a big hindrance, because when writing for features it's usually a really good idea to have all of the other cues you've written (or that are still in development stage) bounced as a stereo demo mix and placed in sync to picture so you can quickly jump around the reel and listen to them all in order to maintain coherency in your writing.

I've been asking at Logic Feedback for a long time for them to pleeeease consider making the Bar 1 start point as flexible as it is in Pro Tools, for just this reason. Or, to use their brains and come up with something even better, with the situations detailed above in mind. I know that myself and others also pestered them to bring 'import session data' to Logic, which has finally made an appearance in the new selective track import feature, so I hope this means they do eventually listen.

As for DP.. again, there are many many things film composers would die of pleasure to find in Logic, and probably they'd be of use to other users too. The hit point calculation functions seem very much like something Logic should have. I've never really understood any actual use of the create markers by scene cuts function in Logic, it still seems like a bit of a gimmick to me that I've yet to find a real use for. But that said, if they'd only take another look at that function, then actually talk to and listen to some film composers about what they could actually use.. there is probably the basis for making it into something useful. Logic already lets you set up several tempo variations, and switch between them.. so it seems to me that there is just a bit of work to do tying all of these almost-useful features together in order to finally make Logic as flexible for film work as DP is.

One other feature in DP that I've always been a strong advocate for in bringing it to Logic is chunks. I won't go into the details of it here, but some variation of that kind of functionality would be very very welcome in Logic. Yes, you can pack stuff in folders in Logic and build up an arrangement that way, but it doesn't quite get you there. If it were possible to have more than one arrangement per Logic project, each of them using the very same mixer with the same tracks and the same plug ins loaded in, you could work very efficiently on writing multiple cues that use the same sound palette, without wasting enormous amounts of time reloading your entire orchestra of sounds each time you want to work on a different cue. Folders don't cut it, because things like automation remaining the same across copies of different tracks means you can't really have a group of totally independent music cues within the one project.

In my view, Logic still has a fair bit to learn (or basically, just copy) from DP and Pro Tools.. Even if those features were brought to Logic in a fairly basic way, that would be great. But if they really took them on and implemented them in a sophisticated, freshly thought out way, we'd really have something.

Mar 22, 2010 6:50 AM in response to tbirdparis

I personally strongly urge Apple to look at movie scoring features in Logic as a priority. I would really love to see some of these features refining, rather than more ear candy. With Apples focus on media creation, you'd think there would be better features for such purposes: a lot of people make a living composing to picture.

Message was edited by: siderealxxx

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For the film scoring guys!!

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