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Q: Unknown data usage early morning
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Sep 28, 2010 9:45 AMby ToddBradley,I had an interesting call back from my AT&T representative this morning. I don't have time to go into all the details, but I did learn that (a) the AT&T technical team does understand this is a problem and they're working on fixing it, (b) they believe it to be the case of network connections persisting much longer than they should, and therefore (c) recommend a short term fix of turning off the phone completely each day (to force those connections closed) until they can figure out a real fix for it.
I told her I'd try that and see if my nightly charges go back to a reasonable amount. I also asked her to pass on to the technical team the fact that my phone's built-in tally of MB transferred varies greatly with the AT&T billing system's tally. As a professional test engineer of telecommunications systems, it still seems to me like that fact is very relevant to all this.
UPDATE: I forgot to mention one other relevant bit. According to my support agent, the reason the charges appear in the billing system every night between midnight and 1am is NOT because of some sort of billing true-up. Instead, that's when the network forces all these network connections that have stayed up all day to close. Some sort of network housekeeping, I guess.
Message was edited by: ToddBradley -
Sep 28, 2010 10:44 AMby jev1313,ToddBradley wrote:
I had an interesting call back from my AT&T representative this morning. I don't have time to go into all the details, but I did learn that (a) the AT&T technical team does understand this is a problem and they're working on fixing it, (b) they believe it to be the case of network connections persisting much longer than they should, and therefore (c) recommend a short term fix of turning off the phone completely each day (to force those connections closed) until they can figure out a real fix for it.
This is exactly the opposite of what i was just told by and ATT tech support rep not 10 minutes ago. I called them to remove the 15$ overage charge and was sent to tech support. Long story short the att tech guy was a moron and was unaware of any outstanding issues regarding this matter and he said to me that the cause of the data transfers is an app that cannot use wifi or isnt using wifi even thought wifi is available. he told me to remove all apps from my phone and put them back one by one to find the bad one. this will take months to figure out i told him. he said that was the only solution he could give me. Funny thing i told him that i close all of my apps every night on my iPhone4 but stull i get these transfers of data. that stopped him cold and he just sat there blubbering uhh "well then i just dont know".
Message was edited by: jev1313 -
Sep 28, 2010 12:25 PMby ToddBradley,{quote:title=jev1313 wrote:}
This is exactly the opposite of what i was just told by and ATT tech support rep not 10 minutes ago.
{quote}
OK, great. So that confirms that there are still plenty of clueless support reps at AT&T, which doesn't surprise anyone here. We already know people are getting conflicting information, and so the issue at hand is to separate the good from the bad, and figure out what to do about it. Which explanation holds more water - the one my support agent gave me, or the one yours gave you? That's what I thought.
Given that, what is the next step to move this discussion forward toward resolving our problems? -
Sep 28, 2010 1:37 PMby jev1313,i dont think that any reps from apple or att read this post so i really dont think it will matter to much. The way i see this post is pretty much a rant about a problem that tons of people are having. I find it hard to believe that ATT and or Apple is clueless about this issue since there are about a gazillion posts over lots of forums. ATT even released an official statment that was published in the NY Times about it. That said I dont think anyone here is going to be able to make ATT or Apple fix the issue. I have already made my opinion clear on what I think the root of the problem is but i will state it again.
I think the problem is 100% related to the fact that the iPhone sends data over the cell network while in sleep mode, even when it is connected to a Wi-Fi connection. An Apple tech told me on the phone that this is "by design to save power because it take less energy to send data over the phone's cell radio than it does to send it over the phone's Wi-Fi radio". A simple iOS update to allow the user to change a setting that overrides cell usage in sleep mode would resolve it. give us the choice with a disclamer that it may adversly affect battery life.
Apple implemented what would fix this issue but only for iPods. It was left out for the iPhones.
Message was edited by: jev1313 -
Sep 28, 2010 2:05 PMby spidey3,jev1313 wrote:
I think the problem is 100% related to the fact that the iPhone sends data over the cell network while in sleep mode, even when it is connected to a Wi-Fi connection. An Apple tech told me on the phone that this is "by design to save power because it take less energy to send data over the phone's cell radio than it does to send it over the phone's Wi-Fi radio". A simple iOS update to allow the user to change a setting that overrides cell usage in sleep mode would resolve it. give us the choice with a disclamer that it may adversly affect battery life.
Apple implemented what would fix this issue but only for iPods. It was left out for the iPhones.
While I agree that it should be possible to configure the phone to use WiFi even when in sleep mode, I disagree that this is the 100% of the problem.
As I see it, there are four changes required:
1) Apple: Make it possible to configure so that WiFi is enabled in sleep mode. There should be a separate setting for on-battery vs. plugged-in.
2) Apple: Provide a way to get a breakdown of data transmission stats by app and by destination - so can determine which app is sending / receiving large amounts of data
3) AT&T: Improve detail on billing. Make it possible [on web site] to drill into the "summary" entries to see full detail. Provide a summary of the "top ten" data connections by domain.
4) AT&T: Make billed bytes match logged bytes on phone exactly
Spidey!!! -
Sep 28, 2010 2:09 PMby lightsp33d,jev1313 wrote:
I think the problem is 100% related to the fact that the iPhone sends data over the cell network while in sleep mode, even when it is connected to a Wi-Fi connection. An Apple tech told me on the phone that this is "by design to save power because it take less energy to send data over the phone's cell radio than it does to send it over the phone's Wi-Fi radio". A simple iOS update to allow the user to change a setting that overrides cell usage in sleep mode would resolve it. give us the choice with a disclamer that it may adversly affect battery life.
It takes less energy to use WiFi than to send and receive data over the cellular network. This is one of the reasons why iOS always prefers WiFi when one is available and pops a modal dialog asking you to connect or simply connects if it is a known network.
As to charges and overcharges: Why do you think does the OS have a cellular data meter? Why do you think it was necessary to add this to the OS? Does AT&T actually count bytes transferred or does it heuristically compute the transfer size by how long a connection has been open? -
Sep 28, 2010 2:21 PMby Lawrence Finch,lightsp33d wrote:
It takes less energy to use WiFi than to send and receive data over the cellular network. This is one of the reasons why iOS always prefers WiFi when one is available and pops a modal dialog asking you to connect or simply connects if it is a known network.
But it takes MORE energy to maintain a WiFi connection when idle; WiFi requires a continuous 2-way connection between router and client; with cellular the client is in listen-only mode. This is why WiFi is off when the phone is on standby.
As to charges and overcharges: Why do you think does the OS have a cellular data meter? Why do you think it was necessary to add this to the OS? Does AT&T actually count bytes transferred or does it heuristically compute the transfer size by how long a connection has been open?
AT&T records each transfer, but rounds each transfer up to the next KB. Early iPhone users saw every individual transfer on their bill, which mean bills of hundeds of pages. AT&T's "solution" was to aggregate transfers and only put the aggregate sub-totals on the bill. How they decide when to aggregate is a mystery, but it might be aggregating in the MTSO and forwarding the sum of recent data trnsfers when the phone has been idle for a period. -
Sep 28, 2010 2:39 PMby jev1313,spidey3 wrote:
jev1313 wrote:
I think the problem is 100% related to the fact that the iPhone sends data over the cell network while in sleep mode, even when it is connected to a Wi-Fi connection. An Apple tech told me on the phone that this is "by design to save power because it take less energy to send data over the phone's cell radio than it does to send it over the phone's Wi-Fi radio". A simple iOS update to allow the user to change a setting that overrides cell usage in sleep mode would resolve it. give us the choice with a disclamer that it may adversly affect battery life.
Apple implemented what would fix this issue but only for iPods. It was left out for the iPhones.
While I agree that it should be possible to configure the phone to use WiFi even when in sleep mode, I disagree that this is the 100% of the problem.
As I see it, there are four changes required:
1) Apple: Make it possible to configure so that WiFi is enabled in sleep mode. There should be a separate setting for on-battery vs. plugged-in.
2) Apple: Provide a way to get a breakdown of data transmission stats by app and by destination - so can determine which app is sending / receiving large amounts of data
3) AT&T: Improve detail on billing. Make it possible [on web site] to drill into the "summary" entries to see full detail. Provide a summary of the "top ten" data connections by domain.
4) AT&T: Make billed bytes match logged bytes on phone exactly
Spidey!!!
Thank you for bringing those other "fixes to light" I agree 100% with you. -
Sep 28, 2010 3:52 PMby DewDuck,I have had a similar but problem to these but on a much larger scale. To preface this, I have only once gone over 100MB. I don't stream video or music, just the occasional pics. Have push turned off and am always on wifi either at the office or home.
During the day, while on wifi I started getting texts saying I was about to go over my 200MB limit. Then I continued to receive texts saying I had gone over and was being charged for an additional 200MB. Then I received another saying the same thing. I decided to look at my data usage online and discovered that on the 27th, I had usages charges from 7:52 am to 6:03 pm of any where from 8MB to 272MB! I totaled 682MB in one day!
I contacted customer service and got a snotty little twit that gave me that same answer many posters have received. It was probably my exchange connection and e-mails that it was sending me, so I should increase my data plan. Told her that was not an acceptable answer so she connected me with tech support.
When I talked to tech support he looked at my usage history as well as these and said that there was some error. That these usages are way too big for normal use and that it wouldn't be coming from me unless I was streaming movies or music over the network.
He transferred me to customer support where a nice person who understood that "something" happened and has heard and dealt with this problem before helped me out. He credited my $45 overage for the inconvenience and told me to call tech support it this problem occurred again.
So I guess that is their wonderful answer. Try and get the customer to pay more for a network/system error until they are persistent enough. -
Sep 29, 2010 2:07 AMby lightsp33d,Lawrence Finch wrote:
lightsp33d wrote:
It takes less energy to use WiFi than to send and receive data over the cellular network. This is one of the reasons why iOS always prefers WiFi when one is available and pops a modal dialog asking you to connect or simply connects if it is a known network.
But it takes MORE energy to maintain a WiFi connection when idle; WiFi requires a continuous 2-way connection between router and client; with cellular the client is in listen-only mode. This is why WiFi is off when the phone is on standby.
Why do you need to keep wifi on for outgoing connections when in standby mode? Certainly iOS can wake up the WiFi interface when an outgoing connection is to be made and shut it off when the transfer is done. This way a lot of energy is saved especially in weak cellular signal areas where WiFi is available.
Incoming connections can "ping" the phone over cellular if no active connection is present, only to have the phone "pong" via WiFi, at which point the originator can transfer (push) the data. (A well known mechanism employed by some some protocols.)As to charges and overcharges: Why do you think does the OS have a cellular data meter? Why do you think it was necessary to add this to the OS? Does AT&T actually count bytes transferred or does it heuristically compute the transfer size by how long a connection has been open?
AT&T records each transfer, but rounds each transfer up to the next KB. Early iPhone users saw every individual transfer on their bill, which mean bills of hundeds of pages. AT&T's "solution" was to aggregate transfers and only put the aggregate sub-totals on the bill. How they decide when to aggregate is a mystery, but it might be aggregating in the MTSO and forwarding the sum of recent data trnsfers when the phone has been idle for a period.
Are you saying that it "aggregated" to 78 MB at 2:30 am and then to 140 MB an hour and a half later at 4:00 am to a total of 218 MB while my phone was on standby on wifi at home and plugged into the charger?
Why not aggregate once per day? Wouldn't that be easier? And when on cell data why do I see lots of small transfers 5-15 mins apart throughout the day? -
Sep 29, 2010 2:27 AMby lightsp33d,spidey3 wrote:
While I agree that it should be possible to configure the phone to use WiFi even when in sleep mode, I disagree that this is the 100% of the problem.
As I see it, there are four changes required:
1) Apple: Make it possible to configure so that WiFi is enabled in sleep mode. There should be a separate setting for on-battery vs. plugged-in.
Sounds reasonable. Of course that'll all be transparent to the user and there will be no knobs to choose "preferred behavior".2) Apple: Provide a way to get a breakdown of data transmission stats by app and by destination - so can determine which app is sending / receiving large amounts of data
Why would Apple do this? Anyway, this isn't happening. Not from the iTunes or iOS.3) AT&T: Improve detail on billing. Make it possible [on web site] to drill into the "summary" entries to see full detail. Provide a summary of the "top ten" data connections by domain.
Privacy concerns on both ends.4) AT&T: Make billed bytes match logged bytes on phone exactly
"We're working on it. But for now that extra dough from incorrectly billing the 200MB/month suckers is awesome. And the 2 GB cap for $5 less than the unlimited plan is gggrrreat!" said Tony the Tiger and chowed down some cereal. -
Sep 29, 2010 4:41 AMby Lawrence Finch,lightsp33d wrote:
Lawrence Finch wrote:
lightsp33d wrote:
It takes less energy to use WiFi than to send and receive data over the cellular network. This is one of the reasons why iOS always prefers WiFi when one is available and pops a modal dialog asking you to connect or simply connects if it is a known network.
But it takes MORE energy to maintain a WiFi connection when idle; WiFi requires a continuous 2-way connection between router and client; with cellular the client is in listen-only mode. This is why WiFi is off when the phone is on standby.
Why do you need to keep wifi on for outgoing connections when in standby mode? Certainly iOS can wake up the WiFi interface when an outgoing connection is to be made and shut it off when the transfer is done. This way a lot of energy is saved especially in weak cellular signal areas where WiFi is available.
Incoming connections can "ping" the phone over cellular if no active connection is present, only to have the phone "pong" via WiFi, at which point the originator can transfer (push) the data. (A well known mechanism employed by some some protocols.)
This has been discussed ad nauseum in this very thread; I don't see the point of repeating it here. The fact is the protocols don't support what you suggest, whether you think they should or not.As to charges and overcharges: Why do you think does the OS have a cellular data meter? Why do you think it was necessary to add this to the OS? Does AT&T actually count bytes transferred or does it heuristically compute the transfer size by how long a connection has been open?
AT&T records each transfer, but rounds each transfer up to the next KB. Early iPhone users saw every individual transfer on their bill, which mean bills of hundeds of pages. AT&T's "solution" was to aggregate transfers and only put the aggregate sub-totals on the bill. How they decide when to aggregate is a mystery, but it might be aggregating in the MTSO and forwarding the sum of recent data trnsfers when the phone has been idle for a period.
Are you saying that it "aggregated" to 78 MB at 2:30 am and then to 140 MB an hour and a half later at 4:00 am to a total of 218 MB while my phone was on standby on wifi at home and plugged into the charger?
I don't know all the answers. My guess is that the 4 AM aggregation is not what accumulated between 2:30 AM and 4 AM, it is what was reported by a different MTSO on its scheduled billing update at its scheduled time. So it could have been data used before 2:30 AM or after.
I DO know that my recorded usage on the phone matches approximately what is reported by AT&T, except that sometimes the phone reports MORE than is reported by AT&T, but that AT&T eventually catches up. So the evidence is that the phone records usage real time, but AT&T takes a while.
Why not aggregate once per day? Wouldn't that be easier? And when on cell data why do I see lots of small transfers 5-15 mins apart throughout the day? -
Sep 29, 2010 5:23 AMby Rick Wilson,Tried to find a way to search this thread but was unsuccessful. I know one should answer No to the info Apple wants to collect when you first connect to itunes but I thought I read somewhere that one also had to either send an email to a specific address or visit a website using the phone to prevent info from being collected for Ads.
Can someone re-post or point me to the post? Thanks -
Sep 29, 2010 5:30 AMby Eddie Strauss,I'm not too sure saying no solves any problem. I have not said no as I don't mind Apple having diagnostic information from me. Those who have said no did not solve their overusage problem from what I can tell on this board. There are ways to reset the choice as you will find, but I don't think there are any solutions listed here in this thread at all. Those who think they have it solved come back to say they were mistaken.
If 'we are aware of a problem' is true as many who have spoken to ATT reps have reported then changing that setting would not do the trick. -
Sep 29, 2010 8:17 AMby kaluzu,Rick Wilson wrote:
Tried to find a way to search this thread but was unsuccessful. I know one should answer No to the info Apple wants to collect when you first connect to itunes but I thought I read somewhere that one also had to either send an email to a specific address or visit a website using the phone to prevent info from being collected for Ads.
Can someone re-post or point me to the post? Thanks
on the phone, go to oo.apple.com (oo = opt out)
