10.6.4 Gaming Problem

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Bogus? Well apparently Steam doesn't understand how vociferous it needs to be.
Otherwise they would have gotten Apple to fix it before the update was released.

Suffice it to say, it takes two to tango. If you play the blame game, nothing gets solved.

Apple may have other reasons to make 10.6.4 code differently from what Steam currently has.
We have no idea what they may be, whether it is to allow for the production of new computer chips like those found in the new Mac Mini, or any of the actual features within 10.6.4 may not run without the coding a certain way.

It doesn't help if users start solely blaming Apple either. Users need to contact Steam and ask them to take at least partial responsibility for coding to Apple's specs, so Apple can move forward with its hardware and software requirements.

Just call them on AppleCare.
Those without AppleCare (which can include the free 90 days from date of computer's purchase) can either pay the per incident call, or walk into a Genius bar and speak to a technician. Get a case number when you call, so you can follow up on it.

Apple may never say it is fixed out loud. This is why when you are dealing with third parties, you should contact and listen to them first. Remember, there are thousands of third party software titles. Can you imagine the document length on their software update link if they listed every single bug fix they made?

Backward compatibility needs to last longer than point releases, or there needs to be a way to roll back to previous versions without a reinstall.

Apple is lucky to have developers, not the other way around.

Ever use a 7300 card on the mac? Built in to macs for a while. Well, they never got the drivers to work, and consequently depth rendering is just borked, and has never been fixed.

We buy computers to run software we currently own, not software we 'might eventually own'.

Backward compatibility needs to last longer than point releases

It would be ideal if that was the case.

or there needs to be a way to roll back to previous versions without a reinstall.

There is. Read the documentation that comes on the screen with every update.
It says it right on the Software Update Screen:

You should back up your system before installation; you can use Time Machine.

Rolling back is as simple as learning how to recover from either Time Machine, or a cloning software, such as described on my FAQ*:

http://www.macmaps.com/backup.html

If there was any other way of simply clicking rollback, how do you roll back 690MB of data without tripping up some codependency?

Ever use a 7300 card on the mac? Built in to macs for a while. Well, they never got the drivers to work, and consequently depth rendering is just borked, and has never been fixed.

No. But if you read on the forums there are those who are happy with them:

http://forums.macnn.com/65/mac-pro-and-power-mac/324409/geforce-7300gt-radeon-x1 900-xt-my/

So apparently, the problem for you was a buggy nVidia card, and not the operating system. If it was solely the card that didn't have the appropriate drivers, nobody would have ever said anything positive about them.

We buy computers to run software we currently own, not software we 'might eventually own'.

Doesn't this fly in the face of:

Backward compatibility needs to last longer than point releases

?

If you are buying computers for software you currently own, you don't yet own the "point release" update. Therefore you don't need backward compatibility. Just buy software you need for what you currently own as you say, and you will never need to upgrade.

Now if you really need backward compatibility, you'd ask developers who you depend on to get with the program and really coordinate with Apple to solve bugs before they release an update.

- * Links to my pages may give me compensation.

Message was edited by: a brody

Message was edited by: a brody

This clearly IS an Apple issue. There is a problem with the OpenGL implementation in 10.6.4 and it affects ALL OpenGL apps with specific calls. Start WOW, Steam, any of them, and (on nvidia cards, using the NV50HAL) try to minimize or window; you'll see that the entire OpenGL environment, even Core, the GUY is now crawling; which normalized when the openGL app is closed.

This is a bug with 10.6.4 and no calling AppleCare (it's not hardware) or blaming Valve or Blizzard (they are just utilizing OpenGL calls that Apple provides in framework) is going to fix it.
Apple needs to issue a patch for this.

Dan

Umm...Valve isn't the only implementer of OpenGL. I'm sure there are some who know how to work it just fine.

Message was edited by: a brody

Since you think it is OpenGL, I looked at the 10.6.4 description:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4150

The only things that remotely look like they might refer to OpenGL are:

resolve a playback issue in DVD Player when using Good Quality deinterlacing

resolves an issue editing photos with iPhoto or Aperture in full screen view

The OpenGL framework may need to have been edited to for that to work better. You win better DVD playback, and as a consequence some third party OpenGL implementers get lost. Full screen image editing sometimes requires good redrawing of images. I've seen this issue in iPhoto a lot, and I see occasional scrambled images in 10.6.2 in refreshes, but then go back to normal. If I knew for certain that 10.6.3 or 10.6.4 would be compatible with all my software, I would update to address that issue.

But none of the issues appear to directly address OpenGL in gaming. It pays to read up on an update before applying it. If it doesn't address your software in every way, or you can't get a guarantee from your third party software it is compatible, don't update. And always backup your data prior to updating as the first line in the link mentions.

Brody,
indeed - and this issue has materialized with all implementers of OpenGL utilizing specific calls, and only with the NV50HAL - i.e. on nvidia cards or chipsets.
Valve is not the only implementer indeed. Which is why Blizzard is having the same issue, and nvidia has already posted that THEY are aware of the issue. Start pretty much any games - or in fact, Adobe Premier CS5 with Mercury! - and the issues appears.
It affects the latest CUDA implementation (3.0.14) as well; it's kext is no longer initializing properly, and is flagged by 10.6.4 as outdated (which it isn't).

If you look at the console report when starting any of those, you see a slew of function calls that fail (from multi-core OpenGL initilization to activating GL array buffers.
If you don't you likely don't have one of the affected nvidia chipsets.

Could it theoretically be nvidia's problem? Maybe; but since Apple supplies us with drivers and the HAL, and not nvidia (or AMD) themselves, the onus falls on them.

Finally, Apple might not have noted that in the update FAQ, and OpenGL was indeed updated in a major way with 10.6.4. A number of ARBs and EXTs are new, higher version and the driver versioning for nvidia has changed as well (not sure what changes were made).

cheers
dan

Since you appear to know so much about it, I hope you have alerted Apple on the bugreporter link I mentioned above. It is free to access.

I did, some time ago; it was marked as a duplicate, clearly indicating that the issue is a) known and b) all reported incidences have been grouped into a consolidated bug report (that was filed prior to mine).

Look, I just want to get this addresses, which I am certain Apple is trying to - no interest in stirring anything else up. nvidia interestingly enough has posted a new drivers for 10.6.4, that within 20 minutes was taken back down without explanation....

For those of you who are using the GTX 285 card affected by the bug in 10.6.4 (ARB calls and incorrect setting of the speed modes), nvidia has now posted an updated driver (this was posted earlier, then removed):
http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce-macosx-19.5.8f03-driver.html

This is to specifically address the issues with 10.6.4. nvidia is saying they do not know yet if a general upgrade for other nvidia chipsets (not all are affected) will come from them first, or from Apple.

Disclaimer: Haven't tried the new driver yet, will later this afternoon.

D

i have the same problem ... i play an online game on the internet (runescape) and if i play my screen starts to flip and crashes etc... before the update i had no problems , hope this will be fixed soon because its almost vacation and i want to play :/

Since the update, I'm getting an average of 10-14fps in DIABLO 2... in software rendering, no less.

QuickTime's having a hard time displaying the video on most of my movies (the audio's perfectly fine, though).

No matter what I do on my computer, the fan doesn't start. That's seems normal because my Macbook Pro's not generating any heat... AT ALL. It's not even trying to dish out the performance I used to have prior to the update.

Whatever v10.6.4 is supposed to do, it certainly screwed up something on my computer. Disk Warrior couldn't fix it and now the only solution I find is to reformat.

I see this thread:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2466778&tstart=0

Also discusses the same issue.
Regardless, thank you dosers for identifying the driver update from nVidia.

I've decided to include a link on my FAQ*:

http://www.macmaps.com/upgradefaq.html#NVDIAOPENGL

As with any update it is important, if you apply third party patches to have a backup from prior to making that patch, in case Apple releases a patch that assumes that patch hasn't been installed. Otherwise you could end up with worse problems.

- * Links to my pages may give me compensation.