MacBook 16-inch Fan Noise

DPJ wrote:

If you know a concrete way for me to stop receiving emails from THIS this thread I would appreciate you sharing the trick.

There is a bug in the Discussions software that makes unfollowing a thread difficult.

These instructions are for Safari:

1. Click the black "Following" box at the top of the page so it becomes "Follow."
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3. If after reloading the box once again reads "Following," go back to step 1.
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When that happens, you have successfully unfollowed the thread.

It sounds painful, but in reality 100 retries should only take a few minutes, depending upon the speed of your Internet connection.

Dear all... I am definitely replacing my 16" after all. Now, is it completely safe to say that:

1. 16" with Radeon 5600 do work well, i.e. do not raise power consumption beyond 5W and hence no crazy use of fans?
2. New 13" do not have these problems?

Please advise, as I am trying to use our university's internal Apple story, but and they are telling me that they will do the replacement only ONCE, and if the next one is not working, and Apple does not consider it a manufacturing defect, they will not be able to swap it again.

I wanted to use my 16 inch MacBook Pro in "lid open" mode connected to my monitor. However, try as I may it was just not possible to work in this way.

• My MacBook Pro 16 inch spec - i9 8 core 2.3GHz ; AMD Radeon 5500M 4GB ; 32GB RAM ; 1TB SSD.
• My Monitor - Philips 346B1C 34 inch widescreen monitor, 60Hz, connected to and powering the MacBook Pro via USB-C
• My Usage - always open and running Microsoft Teams for video calls/collaboration, Microsoft Office for Mac (Outlook, Word, Powerpoint, Excel) ; Chrome (10 tabs typically open), Safari (4 tabs typically open), Monday app, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, Apple Mail.

I wanted to use "lid open" mode so that I could use the excellent keyboard, mics and speakers built into the MacBook Pro and have the integral display handy as a 2nd screen. However, it was not possible to work normally without the heat heading above 75 degrees C and the fans running at over 5,000 rpm. All because the Radeon 5500 power consumption jumped up from 5W to 20W when connecting the external display. Far too noisy for conference calls especially. Also, my MacBook Pro would regularly crash overnight when sleeping.

I contacted Apple support and after various actions (resetting NV-RAM and SMC, reinstalling the OS), my case was escalated to an engineer. I was subsequently advised that the heat / noise was "expected behaviour". Which I refuse to accept so am still in the process of escalating further. However, in parallel I have found that the following workarounds have provided me with a far quieter working environment and may help others:

• I installed Turbo Boost Pro and disabled turbo boost
• I turned off Power Nap (this appears to have fixed the crashing overnight issue)
• I now run my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode, in a vertical stand (Twelve South book arc)
• I added an external bluetooth keyboard and mouse (Logitech MX Keys and MX 3 for Mac)
• I added external speakers (Bose Companion 20s) connected to the headphone port as I can no longer use the integral speakers.
• I use (already had this) a Shure MV88+ microphone as I can no longer use the integral mics.

Now I have a superbly quiet working environment, temperature less than 50 degrees C and fans running around 1,800 rpm. Silent. Including when on Microsoft Teams video calls, the fans ramp up to about 2,500 rpm but are not noticeable. I have however had to add several expensive accessories to run effectively in clamshell mode and provide the quality experience I am looking for (and yes, I know that cheaper alternatives exist). I'm happy to continue working in this mode and will do so having invested in these accessories. But I still do not want to let Apple off the hook for their poor design in "lid open" mode which was my preferred way of working and why I bought the 16 inch MacBook Pro in the first place.

Just bought the new MBP 2016 as well, 2.4Ghz 8-core i9 CPU, with 64Gb RAM and Radeon 5500M 8Gb and I have the same issue:

• when in clamshell mode connected one external monitor plugged in with HDMI to USB-C cable, I get fans running between 1800rpm to 2500rpm (when some of my tools are running, like Webstorm, Docker or some node processes) and temperatures around 65-70degre celcius on rhe CPUs and GPU
• with two external monitor still in clamshell mode, it gets crazier: 4500 to 5000 rpm with temperatures up to 98°!! Fans run around 70° conpletely idle with no apps running...

I debated with myself for a while, whether I should get this one or wait for the new Apple Silicons, decided it’s be safer to get this last Intel model (I use my laptop for work), but now I am kind of disappointed: I like the performances, but the noise when doing basic tasks is really annoying/distracting. I call the support and brought it in and I got the same answer: it’s expected behaviour. My previous MBP 13 2.9 i5 could at least handle both monitors, now I can’t use my external monitors, rendering my setup completely useless :( I sure hope the issue can solved or at least managed with a software patch, I saved for the entire year to get this! 😭

I thought of the fine people in this thread when I read this recent Ars Technica article about the 20 birthday of the Power Mac G4 cube. Two things stand out:

• Apple have been battling thermal issues for at least 20 years
• Steve Jobs' opinion of fans:

Jobs hated fans. Hated them.

I also hate fans. Especially when they are loud even though nothing much is happening.

Enjoy.

Just for fun, I'd like to ask when the last time many here used a PC laptop running Windows 10 Home.

I just helped a friend set up their brand new HP Spectre x360 15-EB0053DX:

• Intel® Core™ i7-10750H (2.6 GHz base frequency, up to 5 GHz with Intel® Turbo Boost Technology, 12 MB L3 cache, 6 cores)
• 16 GB DDR4-2933 SDRAM (onboard)
• 1 TB Intel® SSD
• GeForce GTX 1650 Ti

Without an external monitor, the unit got rather hot and fans spun up to high speed only a few minutes into the initial setup, the fans being louder than I have ever heard on any MBP, while performing such "challenging" tasks as:

• Opening Windows Settings
• Launching Office
• Installing Windows Updates
• Installing Norton LifeLock

I do wonder if it is just that Intel-based laptops now throw off such a huge amount of heat between their CPU and GPUs that high speed fans are just required.

Certainly those who are complaining of fan noise here need to stay away from the HP Spectre x360 line as well.

ahmedfromreservoir wrote:

I've returned windows laptops for being loud and they weren't as consistantly loud as this.

That's certainly not my experience; I heard more and louder fans setting up a brand new HP Spectre x360 this past weekend than I have ever heard from my MBP 16 - but then again except once during a system upgrade I have never actually heard the fans on my MBP 16 spin up.

Here's the config if you want to try it yourself sometime:

HP Spectre x360 2-in-1 15.6" 4K Ultra HD Touch-Screen Laptop:

• Intel Core i7 i7-10750H
• 16GB Memory
• NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti
• 1TB SSD

Likewise I hear the fans on a colleague's Dell laptop spin up every few minutes for a few minutes at a time at maximum speed just sitting idle.

I honestly think Apple knows this is a problem but they just don't care, in a way it makes sense for them to burn customers like us on what is now their boring old platform, especially when the key problems are arising from poorly designed third party hardware components.

Please save me the conspiracy theories; I suspect it's more that this is just the way a GPU this powerful will work in the very limited space available. The fans keep it cool, it never overheats, it never hits thermal shutdown, it sounds like the thermal engineering was very well done, people just don't like the sound of fans.

You keep saying the components are "poorly designed" where I see nothing not performing as it was specified to. GPUs and VRAM generate heat, which has to go somewhere, and it's managed and managed well. Performance is excellent, and there is no flicker, which is why the VRAM is run at maximum speed.

There's an expectation of macbooks to be all around better than their windows counter-parts and unfortunately with the 16" MacBook Pro apple has failed miserably, but what's worse is they just don't care because they know we will just buy their ARM laptops.

Seriously, with ten minutes in a Best Buy I could demonstrate more PC laptop fans for you now that I know just bringing up Windows 10 "Settings" often sets them off, at least on HP Spectres.

It's a very abusive relationshi and while most of us know it's a problem like with most abusive relationships there are those in complete denial.

That's completely ridiculous and, as a bonus, is honestly offensive to people who have lived through actual abusive relationships.

I've never heard the fans spin up, and if and when they do, it's no big deal, that's what laptops do, it's the price you pay for so much power in such a small space.

If you don't like fans, that's why iPads exist.

William Kucharski wrote:

ryunokokoro wrote:

William, do you not understand how continuously pointing out your own experience in this thread causes them to feel as though you're discounting their experience?

Not at all.

Science - which computer science is - requires reporting of all results, positive and negative.

Further, the fact that my configuration does not experience the issue does not belittle those experiencing the issue, but rather shows there is some further, non-obvious factor that explains is part of the issue.

I think you missed the point. I never said that your goal was to discount others' experiences. Rather, I pointed out that your statements are received as belittling. This is a human thing, not a "facts" thing.

I agree that your data point should not be discounted. It is important and I assume that Apple themselves already have many such examples in-house. As they are "aware of the issue" and "the behavior is expected", they clearly have examples in house that replicate the issue as well. Apple has the data. This forum is for the users. Help the users. There are two ways to do this:

1. Point out the root cause of the issue (GPU "quirks") and suggest that they fiddle with settings to see if they can get an improvement. Reporting working results/configurations will help with this.
2. Tell them to contact Apple Support.

If your reaction is to suggest contacting support, then I'm not sure how much help it is to even bother getting into the root cause explanation stuff.

You and everyone else here may be able to see the issue, but unless it can be reproduced in-house, it will end up marked "cannot reproduce" as there's nothing to go on to reproduce it. Anyone who has ever developed and debugged software has been there.

I do not have a 16" laptop. I have the 2018 15" laptop. I found this thread while looking for details related to [an apparently different] issue my laptop was having.

We also already know that this isn't a "cannot reproduce" problem for Apple as they have reported that this is "expected behavior". They can certainly reproduce it. They just don't have any way to (or plans to) "fix" it.

Anyone who has developed and debugged software has also been in the situation where they find that something working in a less-than-ideal fashion is actually working "as designed". Which you've already pointed out is what Apple has said.

Talking about Apple filing this as "cannot reproduce" in this case is a red herring to the conversation.

People find this thread looking for help; for a solution. When you chime in with "Well, it doesn't happen for me. My GPU draws 20W and yet my fans stay at a cool 2400 RPM!" there is an implied "***** to be you!" You may not intend this, but it is how it comes off.

That's your read of the situation, not the read of anyone looking at it in an objective, scientific way.

You are on an internet forum for general users. While there are some who may come and be Vulcan-level in their objective, logical view of things, most people come to this thread upset that they've spent thousands of dollars on a machine that they expected would be able to handle external monitors at least as well as their previous machines. They are very likely not looking at this in a purely objective way, but rather a passionate one where they desperately want their investment to work as they expected.

It doesn't take much to determine that most people chiming in on this thread are upset in this way. The language they use is rife with disappointment and emotion. Engaging them on that level and working with them (e.g. "I am very sorry to hear that you're having this issue. Rest assured this doesn't appear to be a universal thing so there is likely a way that your machine can get whisper quiet as well. To start, can you tell us what your display configuration is? The more details, the better!") will be more effective than purely stating facts at them (e.g. "This does not occur for all 16" laptops. My laptop proves that. This is a GPU related issue and it is expected behavior.").

I want to see who has the issue, who doesn't and look for the differences, as therein lies understanding of the issue.

That's... kind of an odd statement to make. Anyone the vast majority of people chiming in here do so because they are having the problem listed in the thread title. So identifying this part is trivial.

As for "looking for the differences", I agree 100% with this. I looked back through the last several pages of this thread (5 pages, at least) and didn't notice you request such data. Did I miss something?

William. I am struggling with this problem myself, and have just spent the last couple of hours going through this thread trying to learn what I can from people helpfully posting their insights.

But every 3rd post is wall of text from you with the same old tired points. Arguing with the literally 2000+ people experiencing this issue and trying to convince them that it's fine and it's they that are wrong.

And for those people who are actually trying to be productive and understand this, here are the two things I've learned:

• HiDPI resolutions definitely help. SetResX has a HiDPI resolution for my monitor's native res that looks effectively the same as the "more space" scaling, but doesn't generate excessive logs and performs a little better. It's not perfect, but it's better.
• "Clamshell mode" (ie, shutting the lid) does actually help a fair bit too.

Neither are complete fixes, but it's certainly a bit more tolerable now.

[Edited by Moderator]

In my case that happens if clamshell mode is only with one monitor. That means that the OS is recognizing only one screen. If I do clamshell with two monitors, fans get crazy again, because there are two screens for the system. So my conclusion is:

• One screen for the OS is OK and fans are spinning under 2K rpm with low CPU (this could be expected)
• More than one screen for the OS lead to the issue, so fans are spinning over +3K rpm or even 5K rpm (this shouldn't be expected at all)

Tested with my two Dell monitors (U2717D and U4320Q) and also tested with my brother's (two U3219Q).

I was now several times in contact with apple support in switzerland and after my visit last week they wanted to connect me to an engineer to get to the bottom of the issue. Yesterday after insisiting and bothering apple they called me back and he was guiding me through several questions.

• Do you tested with another monitor -> yes, in the office with different 4k monitor
• Can you test without your external hub with just apple adapter -> yes, thats my config in the office
• Have you reset SMC? -> yes
• Have you reset nvram -> yes
• Have you tested in "recovery" mode (forgot how it is called) -> Yes, same problem
• Have you created different user and tested there -> yes, same here
• Have you installed a fresh MacOSx? -> not yet since i would loose all my tech stacks installed, he told me that i would not loose something.... Has to be seen
• When step before has no effect they would want me to create new partition and install fresh OS with no connection to old system -> Same here, would loose a ton of time.

What is your experience? Was something from my list solve your problem? Is here someone who has a device working fine after it went through these steps? Do you guys also have a problem that external screen is not turning on when macbook was in sleep mode? Have to restart to get it working again.

The technical engineer was very arrogant and was brushing the forum thread aside, i was confronting him that a lot of people seem to have this issue but he told me we had to go through in order to get to the bottom of the issue. I was complaining that no one would pay us for doing their beta testing.

Was giving feedback on the macbook and reported hardware issues, created the case and in contact with several people from apple.

What is the latest state with your ticket? How will you proceed with your MacBook?

So you still keep saying the same thing.. The following devices do not turn on the fans:

• XPS15 9500
• Lenovo Thinkpad e595 (the AMD one). A $500 device that does not ramp up.. :)
• My 5 year old Asus N550.. It only ramps up when there is an ongoing task. Sometimes I found that audio driver consumes unnecessary CPU when I am using bluetooth.. That's rare but when I kill that process it ramps down.
• In the company there are a lot of Dell gaming laptops, Asus ultrabooks. The cheap ones to the fancy ones.. None of them ramp up to annoying levels.. I can spot 2 MBP16's my eyes close, when people go for lunch..

Shall I go on? There are silent laptops, and there are noisy ones.. Please suggest me a MacBook Pro that does not ramp up the fans but has the 9th gen i7 45W CPU..

What you didn't understant is: In PC world you have choice.. If HP bothers you, return it, buy Dell, Asus, Lenovo, Acer.. If you have to use a Mac, do you have a choice?

These comments are fairly amazing ! I have been a big fan of Apple computers for more than 25 years, but when they do something wrong, let's face it and ask them to things right!

As a consumer, and with a machine at that price, you can deserve to have :

• a silent computer when you are not requiring much horse power and doing simple daily tasks
• a powerful computer for heavy load tasks that you would need from time to time and in which case you can tolerate the fan noise

Anyhow - any advice is welcome - as far as I am concerned I have tried everything I could find and did not manage to make it silent with an external monitor... what would it take to give the option not to activate dGPU when you connect a monitor?

So, even if William is not very open to change his mind, I followed his advice and used the following setup :

• Display Port to USB-C cable (this is supported by my AOC 2K monitor)
• It is an "8K" ready version (DP 1.4) - a bit more expansive but preferred the high end one
• Turbo boost switcher to switch off Turbo Boost on CPU
• Display port connection on the right, power on the left

With this, I am currently between 2500 and 3000 RPM on my fans doing standard tasks (not CPU consuming), and even if it is still audible, it remains acceptable. Still need to check how it behaves on Zoom calls or equivalent, but already better than with HDMI cable.

I still think Apple and/or AMD are to blame in this poor integration and temperature handling for a machine at this price, but as I cannot return it anymore (took me too long to discover this issue) this workaround is better than nothing...

I hope this result will stop people from saying it's not a defect. There is definitely a bug in the software :

• Using clamshell with two exact same monitors at 2560x1440@60hz, dGPU consumes 19W
• Using clamshell with two exact same monitors at 3008x1692@60hz, dGPU consumes 7.5W

By purely increasing the resolutions, it requires less than half the wattage.