questions, set up, connecting client computers to server

Question

Level 1

41 points

questions, set up, connecting client computers to server

I am a novice.

I have a small business (dental office) with 11 macs (and 4 at home). Up until recently my network has consisted of stand alone macs and I use file sharing, screen sharing, etc. to do basic network stuff.

As our database grows, I need a more sophisticated network.

I have recently employed some network people to set up Snow Leopard Server. However, they are experts with *_windows server_* networks and have never set up a mac network. There isn't anyone local that I can find who has ever set up a mac network.

So, we began the "easy" set up today and our heads are spinning.

The server seemed to set up correctly, but when it comes to connecting the exisiting client computers to the server, we haven't had much luck and there doesn't seem to be any clear guidance on this.

My assumption is that I should be able to set up users on the server that could then log in on any of the client computers and their preferences, desktop, etc. would appear before them, no matter what computer they were on in the office.

Am I correct in that assumption?

If so, where can we go to find the help we need to get this set up correctly?

Obviously it would be better for them to be asking these questions, since they know the vocabulary and the technical stuff.

What I envision is setting up 3 work groups and several users. My front office staff members could move between three computers, logging in with their log in, and get their preferences, folders, and desktop. All documents would be stored on the server. I would have remote VPN access to the network from my home, having the ability to access our practice management software, patient records, x rays etc. from anywhere in the world, perhaps even my iPhone?

Are these things possible with Leopard Server? If so, where's the missing manual?

Again, our main challenge seems to be figuring out the login of a client computer into the server, or a login that is "hosted" by the server. At this moment, all user accounts remain to be only local accounts.

We have gone into accounts and clicked the "join" button. Some of the computers have even received an "invitation" from the server, and we have attempted to "login" with the user names and passwords we set up on the server, but we don't get what we envision. The computer seems to be "connected" some how, but having a custom account that shows up across computers (like a windows server network) doesn't seem to be happening yet.

We are missing a piece of the puzzle. I realize this post is not very neat, if there is any information I can provide to clear things up, let me know.

Thanks.

iMac intel, Mac Pro, mac mini, macbook pro, Mac OS X (10.6.4)

Posted on Jul 16, 2010 8:37 PM

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Answer 1

Camelot

Level 9

54,333 points

Jul 17, 2010 12:08 AM in response to Daniel Peck

My assumption is that I should be able to set up users on the server that could then log in on any of the client computers and their preferences, desktop, etc. would appear before them, no matter what computer they were on in the office.

Am I correct in that assumption?

That is correct, yes, however getting there is a multi-step process, especially if the users currently have local accounts on individual machines (you'll need to migrate each user's content to the server).

What I envision is setting up 3 work groups and several users. My front office staff members could move between three computers, logging in with their log in, and get their preferences, folders, and desktop. All documents would be stored on the server. I would have remote VPN access to the network from my home, having the ability to access our practice management software, patient records, x rays etc. from anywhere in the world, perhaps even my iPhone?

Are these things possible with Leopard Server? If so, where's the missing manual?

Yes, these things are all possible, but I'd take one step at a time - for example, setup the central user accounts first and worry about the VPN later.

We have gone into accounts and clicked the "join" button. Some of the computers have even received an "invitation" from the server, and we have attempted to "login" with the user names and passwords we set up on the server, but we don't get what we envision. The computer seems to be "connected" some how, but having a custom account that shows up across computers (like a windows server network) doesn't seem to be happening yet.

It sounds like what you're missing is the central home directory configuration.

The first thing to check is that you don't have the same username in the local (i.e. client) system as you're using on the server - the local account should always take preference, so if there's a 'joe' account on the server and a 'joe' account configured on one (or more) client machines then the local account will be used when 'joe' logs in, and the server won't even be consulted.

Secondly you need to create a sharepoint on the server that's marked as suitable for home directories. Any sharepoint will do, just make sure it's flagged accordingly.

Then in the accounts setup on the server you need to specify this sharepoint as being each user's home directory location.
By default each user's home directory location is '/Users' which translates to the local /Users directory on each machine - that's why your users are not seeing a consistent desktop when they log in on a different machine - they're seeing a different /Users/<username> directory.
By specifying the user's home directory as being on the sharepoint the client machine will automatically mount that sharepoint as the user logs in, thereby ensuring they see the same content no matter where they're logged in from.

So my suggestion of where to go (or start) would be:

1) create the home directory share point on the server and publish it via AFP
2) create the groups that you want (e.g. 'front office', 'dentists', etc.)
3) create the users on the server (or edit the existing users), making sure they're in the appropriate group, and have the sharepoint from 1) above marked as their home directory.

That should go a long way to getting you your accounts setup in the way you want.

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Answer 2

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 17, 2010 7:51 AM in response to Camelot

Thank you very much for this information. I think you are correct on the "central home directory configuration" not being set up etc.

I will see what we can do to figure this out and then I'll get back to you.

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Answer 3

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 17, 2010 5:39 PM in response to Camelot

So I've been reading up on your advice concerning the shared point.

I have come across two concepts and I wanted to clarify which one is the tool I need.

I've read about "Netboot" or "netinstall" where I can have, I believe, a disk image on the server that allows me to boot up from the server while on a client computer. I have noticed warnings that this can tax a server quite a bit.

The other concept is having the user home folders on the server.

I'm not sure what the difference is here. The latter seems to be closer to what I want, but may also tax the server, but maybe not as much as a net install configuration.

Here is my current office set up:

My computer (Mac Pro)
Mac Mini server (currently getting that set up)

3 Mac minis for administrative staff (front desk, scheduling, finances etc.)

6 iMacs in our opertories used by me (the dentist), assitants, and hygienists using our management software, taking x rays, and scheduling.

My computer and the mac mini server will have access to everything and only be used by me.

The 3 administrative computers are utilized by 2 staff members and they need to be able to float between the computers. My plan is to give each one of them their own login because there is a "division of labor" between them and they are responsible for different tasks. ...So that whatever computer they are on, they will have their "desktop" and preferences set up.

For the 4-5 clinical staff and 6 iMacs, there is no need to have specialized or custom desktops. So I planned to give them one user login for all the computers to bring up the same thing everywhere.

I wonder if putting the home folders for all six iMacs would be overkill? Or would one home folder work and all six computers can access it at the same time? The interesting thing with these computers (and pretty much all computers in my office) is that the main thing they are doing is running our management software (MacPractice) which uses a mySQL database with its own background server application. The database, up until yesterday, was on my MacPro (the "server"), but now I have moved it to the mac mini server.

I am assuming that any software run on the client computers is actually running on that computer, and not the server.

So, if I have one home folder for the six iMacs, for login purposes only, that should work? and not have any bearing on how the software is running?

So I guess I have two questions.

Netinstall vs. home folders on the server

and with either of these, how would I handle six iMacs that should be the same "user" or set up? Or does this not really matter?

Oh, one thing I definitely want to be able to do is use iChat as a means of communicating in the office. For the past three years I have used iChat with bonjour accounts. This is fine, except I can't send a text message to multiple people.

I'm hoping that iChat with OS X server will allow me to text multiple users at once.

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Answer 4

Camelot

Level 9

54,333 points

Jul 18, 2010 9:37 AM in response to Daniel Peck

I've read about "Netboot" or "netinstall" […] The other concept is having the user home folders on the server.

I'm not sure what the difference is here

In NetBoot, the server stores a disk image of the client's system disk. When the client starts up it doesn't read its own disk but looks out over the network, mounts the disk image off the server and boots from that.

With Network Home Directories the client system boots from its own disk (just like it is now), but when a user logs in it mounts that user's home directory off the server.

In other words, in the former case the local disk isn't used at all (the client could have no disk at all).

As for pros and cons - the main pro of NetBoot is having one central location for all your systems, it makes it easy to update your systems (just update the master image), and also add new systems to your network (plug them in and go).

The downside is that it moves load from the client to the network - if all your clients are booting at the same time that server has to do a lot of work.

I wouldn't recommend NetBoot in your setup.

I am assuming that any software run on the client computers is actually running on that computer, and not the server.

In terms of CPU and memory, yes, but under NetBoot (if you went that way), the actual application would be stored on the server and be loaded over the network.

So, if I have one home folder for the six iMacs, for login purposes only, that should work? and not have any bearing on how the software is running?

I can't answer that - it requires knowledge of how MacPractice works. Most applications store a local preference file for each user. You would have to know how MacPractice would work with 6 users accessing the same preference file - consider what would happen, for example, if one user changed a preference setting while 5 other users were using the app - would the other apps notice? would the preference change be ignored?

For this reason I wouldn't recommend running multiple users with one login. Giving them a unique login seems safer.

Oh, one thing I definitely want to be able to do is use iChat as a means of communicating in the office. For the past three years I have used iChat with bonjour accounts. This is fine, except I can't send a text message to multiple people.

For that you're going to have to create multiple accounts - each user is going to need their own iChat account (one username can't login to ichat multiple times). This goes back to the same preference issue I raised above - if everyone logs on to the same account then everyone will get the same iChat preference file, with the same iChat account setup which isn't going to work.

So given that, I suggest you plan to setup an account for each person using network home directories.

I'm hoping that iChat with OS X server will allow me to text multiple users at once.

I have no idea whether the server will permit this.

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Answer 5

Jul 18, 2010 8:20 PM in response to Daniel Peck

You may want to look at
http://consultants.apple.com/

Since your first sentence was "I am a novice", I don't recommend going it alone unless you have the time to learn, make mistakes, and eventually get it right.

If you are depending on an OS X Server (or any server platform) for a business, it's not unreasonable to expect to pay for the hardware and $2K plus to get it set up correctly and reliably.

While Camelot's advice is spot on, I imagine you're starting to see the complexity involved in what you're trying to do.

I also would never recommend a single mini running OS X Server for a business. A mini running server OS can be a great tool, but IMHO, it's not a business level tool unless maybe you have two of them and/or a good way to get something up and running in the event that your mini server fails.

I am a big Apple fan, but I would not recommend setting up an Apple environment unless you have someone with experience to help you out. If there are really no Apple folks who can help you out, you may be setting yourself up for a lot of problems.

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Answer 6

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 18, 2010 9:17 PM in response to Jeff Kelleher

Jeff, Thank you very much for your thoughts.

I've been wondering about using the mini, even though apple sells it as a "great" option for a small business server, and all the reviews on it by macworld, etc. etc. say it should work well for a small business.

I've been wondering if the mac pro should have the server software rather than the mini.

Also, thank you for the link for apple consultants. There were a few that came up and I will see if they can possibly help out.

The networking people I have employed now consider themselves experts. They were honest in telling me that they had no experience setting up an apple network. I guess they set up windows networks all the time. The nice thing about these guys is they are very local to me, 2 miles and 5 minutes away as opposed to 2 hours for any of the apple consultants listed on line.

I am paying them around $1500 to help me get this set up, they were open and said this may take them a while to learn and set up properly, and that they wouldn't be charging me for that extra time etc. So... I guess I hope all of this works out in the end. I knew that I couldn't go this route alone and that I would need real IT people to set this up and support it.

There is no question that I need to use OS X server, or something like that to make things run smoother, safer, and better.

I believe that Camelot has provided me with the answers to the questions we need to move forward. We'll be doing that tomorrow. I will fill you in on how this all goes.

The good news is that if it doesn't succeed, I can still fall back easily on what I was doing before until we get the permanent server solution up and running.

Having an immediate back up is a great idea. What do you recommend? Presently I have three methods of back up. one time machine back up, one complete duplication of my HD to another drive installed in my mac pro so that I can boot up off of that disk immediately in case my original HD fails, and I duplicate my drive every night to a set of three external hard drives that I rotate and take home with me as an "off site" back up.

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Answer 7

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 18, 2010 9:40 PM in response to Jeff Kelleher

Jeff, I have a question for you, (and camelot)

Suppose I want to use the Mac Pro as the server. Would it be too much of a problem to set up the server first on the mini, and then when it appears to be working properly, clone the server drive on the mini and then copy that onto the main HD on the Mac Pro?

Would that work?

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Answer 8

Jul 19, 2010 10:01 AM in response to Daniel Peck

Depending on the exact setup involved, it could be a problem. It wouldn't be my suggestion in any case.

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Answer 9

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 19, 2010 10:04 AM in response to Jeff Kelleher

what would be your suggestion in migrating the server os to another computer (mac mini to mac pro)?

Or should we just start from scratch on the mac pro.

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Answer 10

Jul 19, 2010 10:16 AM in response to Daniel Peck

Make an external backup of your old disk(s).

Probably the easiest approach for the migration? Switch the backup disk over and connect it into the target server box. Install from scratch on the target server, and migrate your settings from your external backup disk in during the installation of Mac OS X Server as is offered during the SLS installation.

While you could use target disk or another approach, the (external) backup here serves additional purposes, and not the least of which is ensuring that your existing environment remains well clear of your new install.

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Answer 11

Daniel Peck Author

Level 1

41 points

Jul 19, 2010 1:53 PM in response to MrHoffman

Thank you, this seems very clean. I'll do this once we have everything set up the way we need it to be.

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Answer 12

Jul 20, 2010 9:47 AM in response to Daniel Peck

Hi, I am going to try to catch up, make a few comments and ask a few questions.
I too am a novice, when it comes to MAC, but a willing learner.
Camelot, thanks for all the great info.
I agree with the fact that the workstations should boot from their local drives, rather than the server. I also agree with Jeff when he questions about having one server in a business environment. However, a lot of small businesses only use one server and depend heavily on backups. Since the mac mini is so inexpensive, it wouldn't be too unreasonable to have a second one.
So, to my question. You will have to excuse me, but I think in Windows, therefore when I think of a domain and user accounts, I think of centralized user accounts and so when you login to the domain, the server authenticates the user and the user doesn't even have to have a local account on the workstation. When you login to the workstation, you have a choice of logging into the domain or logging into the workstation locally. Two different accounts. I think Camelot pointed that out the user account on the MAC server should not match the local user account on the workstation. Ok, we will try that. But I think the important thing is creating the home directories on the server. Once we do that, will be see something different when logging into the workstation?

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Answer 13

Jul 20, 2010 9:57 AM in response to David W. Lucas

To start learning Mac OS X server there is a good online video tutorial from lynda.com

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=50684

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Answer 14

Jul 20, 2010 12:06 PM in response to David W. Lucas

You can use network home directories with OS X Server. If the accounts have the same name, the local one will take precedence when you log in - that's what Camelot was referring to.

What do you want/expect/need to be different when you login using a network user and home directory?

There is a great tutorial here
http://www.wazmac.com/serversnetwork/fileservers/osxserversetupnotes.htm

it says it's for a school environment, but it should work for you as well.

Jeff

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Answer 15

Jul 20, 2010 2:12 PM in response to Jeff Kelleher

Jeff,
After setting up the server, we setup user accounts on the server. Then we went to the workstations and joined the workstations to the domain. That seemed to work ok. But when we tried to login to the workstation using the network user account, we couldn't login. We had to login using the local account. So we were asking ourselves, what was the purpose of setting up a network user account? However, after logging in locally, we were able to access resources on the server anyhow.
So to answer your question, we want to eliminate local user accounts, except for the local admin account. We want normal users to login into the workstation using the network user account and therefore authenticate to the server. We want the user to be able to login to any workstation using this network user account and have their settings follow them, much like a roaming profile. We of course want to be able to use network resources available on the server, such as file sharing, printers, and of course access to the MAC practice database.

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