Hi, I am having problems with my M1 MacBook Pro and M1 MacBook Air both running Monterey, all supported RAW files seem to have a P3 profile added to them which means when they are displayed in finder or Photos they are oversaturated and very un-life like. Is there a way to stop this behaviour and apply and more suitable colour profile that does not result in oversaturated images, as at present it makes using finder or Photos impossible to use with RAW files.
Thanks dialabrain, yes they will have on both Big Sur and Monterey , it seems any file such as a RAW that doesn't have a colour profile as its just a data file gets a P3 profile when Apples software converts and displays it, there seems to be no way to alter this so a useful colour profile can be associated with a RAW file displayed by Apples own software. Independent programmes such as Darktable, Raw Therapy, and camera makers own RAW processing software will apply the correct profile so the images appear lifelike and true to the original scene or subject. It appears that it maybe a bug in the OS.
Thanks dialabrain, yes they will have on both Big Sur and Monterey , it seems any file such as a RAW that doesn't have a colour profile as its just a data file gets a P3 profile when Apples software converts and displays it, there seems to be no way to alter this so a useful colour profile can be associated with a RAW file displayed by Apples own software. Independent programmes such as Darktable, Raw Therapy, and camera makers own RAW processing software will apply the correct profile so the images appear lifelike and true to the original scene or subject. It appears that it maybe a bug in the OS.
For the benefit of future readers of this thread ...
Color, and its rendering on displays and other devices, is an extremely complex matter that is subject to a wealth of objective, subjective and perceptual factors.
It is likely that two different computers (with different graphics controllers & different displays), will reproduce images differently. Further, RAW images have no naturally embedded color profile and are therefore directly subject to the underlying capabilities & settings of the particular graphics controller & display. JPEG images are additionally subject to their embedded color profile, normally sRGB.
One should never expect a RAW image and its corresponding JPEG to "look" the same. A RAW image should normally appear brighter, more saturated and have a wider dynamic range than its related JPEG.
It is possible that a design flaw, hardware problem, software problem or setting may be at fault if images don't "look right" to you but in the normal course of events, only display calibration can ensure that images are reproduced faithfully and consistently.
Macs have a basic tool to perform display calibration (Display Calibrator Assistant) and there are free websites & tools with similar capabilities. However they are only basic tools; effective display calibration can only be done with a good quality colorimeter such as the Calibrite Colorchecker, Datacolor Spyder or similar device.
(To hedgingmybets - I'm not saying there is no problem with Monterey or your M1 MacBook Pro or MacBook Air, it's certainly possible ... but I'm also not convinced that the response you got from the Apple techs was correct.)
Hi Martin, thank you for the thoughtful reply , appreciated. I too would expect a slight difference in how RAW and JPG image was displayed. My original question here was prompted by the very large difference on both of my M1 MacBooks, it's difficult to describe so a quick screenshot may help illustrate exactly what I am seeing when using Apples own programmes to view RAW files. The two images in the screen shot are both displayed in Preview.
As you can see the difference is marked, the colours in the JPG (top right) on the screen shot are accurate for the plant pictured, the much brighter colour of the flowers in the Raw (bottom left) are completely wrong and oversaturated to the point that file detail when viewed at full size is lost. I normally shoot RAW only but started using RAW + JPG as Apple didn't at the time support my cameras RAW formats . I have tried calibrating both MacBooks. but it makes no difference to how the RAW files are displayed, RAW file colours are always incorrect when using Apples own software to decode them. If I use third party software, eg the camera makers own programmes or something like Darktable or Raw Therapy then everything is exactly as I would expect to be, the colours on screen of both JPG and RAW match those of the original subject almost perfectly. My images are and have been used by universities, Museums and publishers around the world so colour accuracy is certainly important to me.
Please don't get me wrong, I love the MacBooks I own and thoroughly enjoy using them, I just wanted to see if there was a quick and easy answer to the oversaturated images, the techs at Apple say there is no way at present to change what I am seeing.
We cannot assume that the source of those mentioned DNG from Internet locations were all touched by macOS, which enters even more spin to the profile problem.
Experiment. Look at the System Preferences Displays Color Profile setting. If it is set to Display P3, change it to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and then copy a RAW image from the camera to the Finder, click once and press option+cmd+i to open an information panel. Check the Color space and Color profile settings for your image. Still Display P3?
I shoot RAW with my Nikon D700. All of my NEF files show "Display P3" as the color profile in File > GetInfo. I import (actually, transfer) the NEF images from my CF cards directly to my Mac using a card reader, so there is no intermediate software 'working' on the files when I import them, they are direct copies from the CF card; so I cannot say where or how the "Display P3" gets associated with the files, although I suspect it may be a default placeholder and may only be shown in GetInfo without actually being associated with the image.
I tested a number of my NEFs this evening and did not see any oversaturation or any other visual effect that would suggest an out-of-order color profile. I checked them in the Finder, Preview, Adobe Camera Raw and Capture One. In all cases the images presented 'naturally' - meaning everything as expected, no apparent changes, nothing odd.
When I checked the metadata on these same images (in Photoshop) I did not see anything indicating that any color profile was associated with or embedded in any of the images.
My understanding of when a color profile is actually embedded in a RAW file (normally via an in-camera setting, either Adobe RGB or sRGB, never Display P3) is that it has no effect on the RAW image itself, that it only affects the JPEG preview of the RAW image. In ACR you can set or change the color profile associated with a RAW file but those are all Adobe profiles ... Display P3 is not one of the choices.
Photos does display JPEG previews of RAW images by default unless you set Image > Use RAW as Original.
What model Mac are you using, and what Display Profile is it set to use? (See System Preferences > Displays > Color)
I hope some of this information is helpful or at least suggests some avenues to explore. I would not rule out anything as to why your images look the way they do ... first thing I would check is all in-camera settings. I'd also import a few images into yet another computer (perhaps not a Mac, or at least one not on Monterey) to see if the effects show there also. If so, it could be a camera problem.
I looked into this more tonight, as your question piqued my interest.
First, I checked some of my RAW+JPEG images and yes there are subtle differences between them when displayed, but that is as I would expect because of the differences between RAW and JPEG. JPEGs normally have a color profile applied to them - sRGB. In fact, when I did File > GetInfo on the JPEGs, sure enough the color profile listed was sRGB IEC61966-2.1.
Now, in my case, the differences between the RAW & JPEG images in the Finder & Preview were, as I said, subtle, but more importantly they were as I expected. I would expect RAW images to have greater saturation and brightness than their companion JPEG images unless there were in-camera settings pumping up the JPEG renderings. I did not see any gross differences such as oversaturation or tint toward one end of the spectrum or another. And my iMac has a Retina (wide-gamut) display.
So, why are the RAWs showing Display P3 profile when they do not actually have a color profile? I believe the answer is that the Mac Retina displays are actually P3 displays and in the absence of a specified color profile in the image (i.e. the image is "untagged"), the Mac is defaulting to its display's native color profile.
Among the various articles I found when searching, this one was quite informative about the wide gamut displays in late model Macs - > A look at the P3 color gamut of the iMac display. The gist of the problem as the author described it is that "untagged objects and colors in non-color-managed applications may display with distorted colors when rendered on a wide gamut display ..." Such would be the case with the Finder and Preview since they are not color-managed applications. Overcoming it necessitates display calibration and/or color-managed applications.
At this point I think the problem you described requires more research before diagnosing a cause. What display do you have on your Linux machine?
Hi to all, I have been in touch with Apple and their tech support people and they agree that there is a problem in that the P3 profile is being applies to RAW files when decoded by Apple software. They will issue a fix but there is no timescale for that at this moment in time.
I would like to thank those at Apple who listened and helped as well as everyone who joined in on this thread, thanks all
This was my profile experience (Display P3) with different Leica M11 RAW DNG images – one from DPReview, and another from a link in the Leica forum to a Google drive location. I believe that these RAW images are being messaged with an unknown tool (possible Lightroom) to remove privacy information, and that process may be assigning P3, also for reasons unknown. Or, the camera itself is assigning this profile, and there may be adjustments one can make to the camera to use a different profile.
I know that ExifTool can extract, or assign a different .icc profile to an image.
You're welcome. I don't know if it's a bug or a decision on Apple's part. You can send a bug report from the feedback page.
VikingOSX wrote:
I believe that these RAW images are being messaged with an unknown tool (possible Lightroom) to remove privacy information, and that process may be assigning P3, also for reasons unknown.
I guess the only way to know is to capture the images directly from a camera.
I was actually using my own images direct from several cameras, I first noticed something was wrong when I shot some images RAW+Jpg on the camera, these would normally look identical in most preview situations, however on both my Macs when using Preview or Photos the RAW images are very oversaturated, especially the reds and magentas making it impossible to judge if an image is worth further processing or not. The only work around seems to be to use something other than Apples software as that seems incapable of giving a RAW file a usable profile. It would be good to be able to quickly look at a RAW file in preview or finder and be able to judge it it was worth further work without having to open a full processing programme.
hedgingmybets wrote:
I was actually using my own images direct from several cameras…
I assumed you were but I didn't want to say. It may very well be that all supported RAW images have the profile added. Only someone at Apple would know. I found a Sony RX-100 I haven't used since 2017 so of course I forget how to use it. :P
Thanks Dialabrain, I have a feeling any RAW file, as it is raw data and doesn't have a colour profile as such, it gets whatever profile that the decoding software wants to append to it, in Apples case it seems that they blindly apply the P3 profile which means that if you shoot exclusively in RAW format Preview and Photos are largely unusable for serious work. All try contacting Apple and see what they say and if there is a way to get it to apply a different profile that gives natural and realistic colours to an image from a RAW file.
Thanks VikingOSX, at least it shows its not just the way I have set my computers up, seems like everyone has the same experience. Sorry for my slow replies, I think there is some sort of forum anti spam software running that prevents replies in quick succession.
Thank you MartinR for your detailed reply, its much appreciated. I have done much as you have done using Panasonic, Olympus, Canon and Nikon RAW files. When viewed individually in finder , Preview or Photos the images will usually look OK although a little brighter than expected sometimes, I initially though it was the camera(s) but the same RAW files display perfectly on my Linux computers. I first noticed something was wrong when I was shooting RAW + JPEG, the two images display noticeably different colours, the RAW files having the brightest most saturated colour, the JPEG files generated from that one exposure are natural looking, the RAW file images are much brighter and saturated, its by far most noticeable on the red end of the spectrum, red or pink flowers, in subjects like Tortoiseshell Butterflies the orangey wing colour is very much brighter/saturated on the RAW images than the JPEGs. Greens are also affected but more subtly , you may not notice unless comparing a RAW and JPEG image side by side but then it will be apparent.
Please do try shooting a RAW + JPEG and comparing them in finder, Preview and Photos, you should then be able to see the effect I'm talking about.
I have tried changing colour profiles of both Macbooks but it has no effect on how the images are rendered, the RAWs still appear oversaturated on both machines.
The P3 association is only whilst the images are displayed, if I transfer an image from the Macbook to a Linux computer after its been displayed on the Macs it will appear with normal colours on the Linux machine.
RAW files and colour profile
