Washed out QuickTime Export

Thanks Tom for the quick reply.

Many users want to use FCE to make QuickTime movies that 'look good' when played back on personal computers, not televisions. iMovie does this. Why is it so bad for me to hope that FCE would do this as well?

I have a mac mini hooked up by DVI/HDMI to my LCD TV, and that screen is calibrated to the mini just as my laptop has a calibrated LCD screen. So when a movie looks right on my laptop, it looks right on my TV too. Increasingly this is what people do.

I'll bet that the majority of users are in fact using - or trying to use - FCE with no intention of creating broadcast TV distribution movies.

I accept that it's great that FCE is able to create broadcast quality interlaced TV optimised files. However that's not what I, and a lot of users like me, actually want, most of the time.

If I was wanting to create a DVD, or master some file for playback on TV, then I would appreciate being able to export a file with the particular luma and chroma ranges required for TV playback.

But for me it would make sense for Apple to give me some choice in the matter, eg

Export > QuickTime for Computer Playback
Export > QuickTime for TV Playback

Maybe there could be a preferences setting of some kind in the settings file, that ensures that if the output file is intended for playback on computer then the colour rendition within FCE matches what the user gets when they export their finished work?

It is really annoying to add good looking photos to FCE and find that they look completely washed out in the output HD quicktime movies, despite looking perfect inside of FCE. This is in marked contrast to iMovie, where imported pictures look great, and they look the same in the exported quicktime movies.

Are you really suggesting that the way iMovie does things is completely wrong, and that Apple should never consider giving the user same ability in FCE ??

Please do this in both iMovie 09 and FCE 4.01. Using HD settings, drop the same contrasty well-saturated JPEG image into both, export using the same codec, and look at how great the image looks in the exported output from iMovie 09 and how washed out it appears in the FCE version. Tell me which you'd prefer if you were looking at these movies on your home computer, or sharing them on the internet with your friends. And then tell me again why Apple SHOULD NOT fix this, or at least tell me some good easy way to fix it.

You say 'if your intended delivery is for computer display you have to adjust the video output'.

But how would I actually do this 'adjust the video output' think?

The video looks 'perfect' inside of FCE on the computer, but not on export, so it's not possible to make adjustments inside of FCE, get them to 'look right' inside FCE and be sure how they will be good in the output files.

In the absence of any solution within FCE at present, could you please explain exactly how I should best 'adjust the video output' when I want FCE to export movies for display on Macs, not TV's

Thanks

Chris.

Tom -

Thanks for clarifying why so many people find exported QuickTime movies to look 'dull and lifeless' on a computer monitor.

With respect, however, FCP is the Pro app. FCE is a kind of hobbyist / prosumer app. That's how it was positioned by Apple. I'd bet that most of this user base would be very happy indeed for their video to look good on their computer screens!

The same Apple Intermediate Codec is used in iMovie. The issues we are discussing are not fundamentally due to this codec. It is misleading to suggest that the AIC codec is specifically designed for TV display - it isn't!

Take a look at the AIC files in the FCE scratch folder from imported HDV source material. They are all 'dull' or 'faded' in comparison to AIC files from the iMovie package contents from the same source material. This means that FCE is changing the gamma and/or saturation during the logging process. It is changing the colour content and intensity from that which is present on the camera. iMovie does NOT do this.

I am aware that files that look good on TV's will appear washed out on computer screens because of chroma and luma issues. So yes, if you want to make products for playback on TV, it's great that FCE internally displays these washed out files at higher gamma (mimicking a TV monitor).

However it really seems odd to me that Apple do not providing a simple solution for non-TV delivery. Increasingly sophisticated content is being delivered on the internet rather than TV. This will only increase.

That's why I think that Apple should provide FCE users with a simple means to export video that is optimised for computer, rather than TV, distribution. Lots of people want to make video for YouTube, eg promos for bands etc; they need the FCE functionality and they want good visual output quality when played on a computer.

Apple already know what gamma and saturation adjustments to make for video to look good on computers (they make it look good in FCE internally, and they know how to not make it dull in iMovie).

I just hope they recognise that only-for-TV optimisation of the exported movies is very sub-optimal on computers, and that many users don't like this, and find it a hassle to work around.

In the meantime I'll fix it up the exported video with JES Deinterlacer or other tools. The export filters in QuickTime are OK but less than ideal. It is a real shame that Apple are not supporting FCE users - and probably even FCP users - better in this regard.

People pay for FCE expecting more options than iMovie, and they get them. FCE is an amazing app. But people do NOT expect to find that their exported video looks all washed out on their computer screens. That's a very unwelcome surprise!

I suspect most users don't realise why their video lacks colour depth when viewed on their computer. It's not their fault, it's a very poorly publicised issue inherent in FCE. As soon as a user successfully corrects the gamma and saturation of the output files, they can't use them for TV distribution, but wow do they look lifelike, vibrant and realistic on their computer!

Thanks for your feedback - if there is any way you could prod Apple to consider 'for computer delivery' optimisation as well as 'for TV delivery' I would be most grateful.

Chris.

I would really appreciate having FCE work more like iMovie does on export, as an option. 🙂

Could I ask how you'd recommend using QuickTime Conversion export to fix the gamma/saturation issue that we both agree ends up happening? Using QuickTime Conversion, all my resulting files appear the same (washed out colours) as the QuickTime reference movie export option (without conversion).

If you mean that I should use a filter as part of the QuickTime Conversion export options, I don't know what kind of filter or what settings are required to properly reverse the gamma related problems FCE induces. It's not just a brightness/contrast issue.

If there is a means using colorsync in which all that was required was a suitable colorsync output file.... well that would be GREAT! (but I don't know how to make a colorsync file that would just increase gamma by a nominal amount)

Cheers

Chris.

The AIC files created by both iMovie and Final Cut Express from the same HDV source material are absolutely identical; both are 'flat and washed out' (low gamma/saturation) when viewed in QuickTimeX.

Final Cut canvas displays this AIC video in the browser and canvas windows at higher gamma and saturation than QuickTimeX. I guess these windows are mimicking a contrasty TV or video monitor. Generally your video looks very close to the original appearance of the scene as shot in these windows. However, exported QT movies often are much paler, and more washed out, than expected by the preview offered in these editing windows. iMovie on the other hand displays its internal AIC data exactly the same way as it appears in QuickTime, ie a bit flat and washed out - what you see in iMovie is what you will get when you export to a QuickTime movie.

When Final Cut exports a 'reference' quicktime movie, you'll get a 'flat washed out' version in QuicktimeX. The appearance of the video data in any QuickTime movie can be modified by the inclusion of 'nclc' and 'gama' metadata (or 'atoms'). Final Cut (and iMovie) always attaches the 'HD' nclc atom to their HD sourced AIC files. If this 'nclc atom' is removed from an exported reference movie, as can be done with JES Extensifier, the same data looks a lot better in QuickTime- closer to what you see in the Final Cut timeline. However, this kind of near lossless large file should be used for TV broadcasting / distribution, not internet or PC distribution, and removing this metadata may confuse users down the track when they import or export from this file en route to a TV near you.

When Final Cut exports 'Using Quicktime conversion', a user-specified codec has to decide what to do with the colours. Often this is used to make iPod or other more compact versions of the movie. One would hope that the colours in the converted movie reflect what the person making the video intended. It would seem ideal for the colours in the exported movie to match what is seen during editing in Final Cut. However this is often not the case. Different codecs make different assumptions about the colour intent of the source, and must guess what 'nclc' atom should be applied. The 'HD' atom is not appropriate for the iPod, for example. The h264 codec results in video that closely resembles the appearance of the internal AIC files, and consequently usually appears too washed out and pale. x264 does a little better.

With these other codecs, any of a number of 'nclc' atoms can be applied, and additionally the 'gama' (gamma) setting can be set, both of which significantly alter how the same underlying source video is displayed in QuickTime X. Using JES Extensifier it's fairly easy to change these in such a way that the output video looks much closer to what we saw in Final Cut.

For instance, try exporting using the x264 codec, and then remove the 'HD' nclc atom and set the 'gamma' atom to 2.2. Hey presto, your video has saturated colours again, and solid dark shadows! It looks great!. Too dark in the shadows? No problem, fine-tune the 'gamma' setting to your liking. Making these changes is non-destructive, because they are just metadata elements. The appearance associated with metadata changes will be reliable in QuickTimeX from machine to machine, and within software that supports these tags. That it is not always consistently interpreted from app to app explains why it doesn't always work as expected. But at least this gives the user a simple non-destructive means to fine-tune the appearance of their exported movies.

A more robust way is to change the underlying data so that it does not rely on the metadata. However no-one seems to know what settings to use in QuickTime's export filters to correct the colour space, gamma and other parameters to ensure that video exported 'Using QuickTime Conversion' actually looks exactly the same as it appears within Final Cut Pro (and how you would most likely want it to appear).

The following approaches work:

1. Make a reference movie (export quicktime movie). This will use the AIC codec and the HD nclc atom. Get JES Deinterlacer. Set its input filter to 'no nclc atom' and gamma to 2.2. Export using whatever QuickTime codec you prefer. Deinterlace if intended for desktop rather than TV distribution (JES Deinterlacer does a fantastic deinterlace, with much less in the way of jagged edges. If halving vertical pixel count, you get the sharpest possible frames if you tell it to use only one field, though not everyone likes this effect.) Personally I recommend exporting with the x264 codec over Apple's h264. If you do, you can make sure that no nclc or gamma metadata is attached. Anyhow, the resulting file will have much denser midrange tones than the exported AIC movie, be really sharp and clean, just like the appearance within Final Cut. Using JES extensifier you can fine-tune the gamma of the video in a non-destructive manner.

2. As in (1), create the reference AIC movie. Open this in QuickTime 7 (pro) and export with the codec and settings of your choice. See (3) below for notes on codec and deinterlacing. Results will be much better using (1) above.

3. Export direct from Final Cut 'Using Quicktime conversion' with (say) the x264 codec. Set the size and if for desktop use enable deinterlacing. Note that Apple's deinterlacing blends both fields, resulting in blur. That's all. Unfortunately the results are not as good as using JES Deinterlacer as described above. Looked at critically, you'll find the output video is pale and washed out, probably because Final Cut does not fully correct for the gamma reduction in the base AIC files during the export process. So you'll need to get JES Extensifier and add a gamma value of 2.2 to 2.4 to the file before it starts to look right on your screen. If the HD nclc atom is included during the export, its best to remove it, because it tends to make reds a little closer to orange and lowers gamma (and this has already happened a bit in the AIC files, so it gets twice as bad if the HD atom is included).

4. Filter on export from Final Cut 'Using Quicktime conversion' so that the file itself does not depend on gamma metadata. To correct the gamma and fix colour shifts induced by the HD atom in the AIC codec, you'll need to include in the export filters a gamma correcting colorsync filter, a small hue shift, and a small increase in saturation. I don't have a recipe for these. One colorsync converter could conceivably be created to do this job.

In the end I find the very best results using the technique described in (1). The resulting file looks great on any desktop computer, and is free of interlacing artefacts at edges, particularly if the file height is halved. Colours are rich and deep. Inserted jpeg's and images will retain the full range of colour (not exactly, but nearly exactly). The file is perfect for internet sharing, youtube etc, but not suitable for broadcast TV - it will be too contrasty, though this can be fixed to some extent by changing the gamma setting downwards a bit.

One thing to note - the same 'quality' settings when using QuickTime conversion in iMovie result in smaller, more compressed files than identical settings in Final Cut.

Also note that iMovie handles inserted still images very differently from Final Cut. Final Cut renders still images on insertion, resulting in an essentially irreversible but subtle colour shift, so that even in the canvas, your image immediately looks different from the original. If the export technique in (1) is used, these renders will look good on your desktop - much better than they otherwise would. iMovie on the other had displays images within the iMovie program just like Preview, so they always look good on screen. iMovie only provides export using QuickTime conversion, so it is impossible to avoid some colour shifts during conversion.

It is possible, but quite difficult, to get excellent quicktime movies for web or computer distribution out of Final Cut., and I hope that the above info is helpful to those of us who've strugged with colour shifts when using Final Cut. I honestly believe that Apple could make all this a LOT easier, particularly when the intended mode of distribution is by the internet and playback on computer rather than TV screens.

Cheers

Chris.