Program Menus, can they be moved to the window itself?

I know this is sometimes a controversial subject, I promise I just want information! I have found posts about this topic in the past and the answer was always no, but the most recent one I've found by searching is years old so I just want to ask it: Most other operating systems (This is my first mac, I'm a Linux user mostly) the menus are located on the window just below the title bar. On mac they are at the top of the screen. Is there any way with newer software or on the latest version of MacOS to change this so menus appear on the program window like Linux and even (shudders) Windows?


I read on one of those posts about this that long time mac users may

like it this way, and even find having the menu on the window to be less

desirable than how mac does it. I'm genuinely curious...why is this? I

can't really see the advantage, for long time users, do you find the

menus at the top of the screen better? Could you share why? I'd like the

alternate perspective.


For perspective,

I use dual 43" 4k displays running native resolution. this means the window maybe physically far away from the top of the screen, this distance becomes an issue if I needed to use the menus often. I sometimes just move the window up to the top of the screen to make the distance shorter. That just seems silly! I can't believe there isn't an option to change this.


Second, with the menus always at the same place, it is sometimes confusing as to which window the menus pertain to! With certain convensions in software development, many applications have very similar menus. Yes, I know the application name is right there to the left, but I've overlooked it and invoked a menu command on the wrong window many times already. I just don't see why MacOS forces this?


thank you!

MacBook Pro 16″, macOS 13.3

Posted on May 10, 2023 3:49 PM

Reply
Question marked as Top-ranking reply

Posted on May 10, 2023 5:53 PM

When Apple bought NeXT they did so for the NeXTStep / OpenStep operating system. This is where the dock came from and the menus were originally not attached to the windows. The menus floated like a window and could be moved around. Pinning the menu to top of the screen like Macintosh was therefore easy. The early beta's of Mac OS X looked more like NeXTStep but over time became more and more Macintosh like in appearance. It's an evolution. Ironically, much of the NS API is still in macOS. NeXT technology became a secret weapon for Apple. It's what allowed them to easily port from PowerPC to Intel to mobile ARM CPUs to Apple Silicon ARM64 SoC. The iPhone and iPad would not have come about were it not for the technology. NeXT was first with object oriented graphical rapid application development. When it hit the scene people were still drawing out screens on graph paper and calculating the dimensions to hard code the widgets into C++. NeXT was years ahead of VisualBasic, etc. Because macOS is UNIX it quickly became the best laptop for developers after the Windows vs Linux war was won. Linux powers the cloud and developers coding for the cloud love Mac's. Because the alternative was Windows with PuTTY vs. Linux which barely ran on most laptops at the time. At some point, there were more Mac's being carried at USENIX conferences. This is why Microsoft has added the WSL2, updated Windows Terminal, ported SQL Server to Linux, bought Github, allows Linux in Azure. Ported PowerShell to Linux / macOS. Most Silicon Valley Big Tech & startups use Mac's with some Linux for engineers. Linux is amazing as a server and cloud container OS. Lately, it has made tremendous progress on the desktop. But it's still so fragmented and it feels like attention to fine details is not in the Linux DNA like it is in macOS. I like the way macOS just works and manages to stay out of my way. With Linux Desktop I end up tinkering way too much as there are simply way too many options. Mac's feel like a polished and comfortable tool or an appliance while Linux is a full blown DIY mail order kit you will spend years fabricating in your garage. The 1984 Macintosh was the computer anyone could use. Adding UNIX and NeXTStep developer tools with a mature API at the right place at the right time is the reason for Apple's massive success.


Evolution in Pictures


NeXTStep



OS X Server 1.0



Mac OS X Public Beta



Bottom line, the menu bar paradigm is not going to change. It's baked into Apple culture. The original reason for the menu bar was to always be able to jam your mouse pointer up there and browse through the menu items. Whichever app has focus the menu will always be in the same place at the top of the screen. A menu bar is for novices. It acts like an app command reference as well as providing a shortcut key reference. It's a lot like whichkey in ViM / Emacs.


Personally? I don't care about the menus at all. On laptop screens I hide the menu bar and the dock. I use mostly keyboard shortcuts or trackpad gestures.

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7 replies
Question marked as Top-ranking reply

May 10, 2023 5:53 PM in response to kodiakcreativity

When Apple bought NeXT they did so for the NeXTStep / OpenStep operating system. This is where the dock came from and the menus were originally not attached to the windows. The menus floated like a window and could be moved around. Pinning the menu to top of the screen like Macintosh was therefore easy. The early beta's of Mac OS X looked more like NeXTStep but over time became more and more Macintosh like in appearance. It's an evolution. Ironically, much of the NS API is still in macOS. NeXT technology became a secret weapon for Apple. It's what allowed them to easily port from PowerPC to Intel to mobile ARM CPUs to Apple Silicon ARM64 SoC. The iPhone and iPad would not have come about were it not for the technology. NeXT was first with object oriented graphical rapid application development. When it hit the scene people were still drawing out screens on graph paper and calculating the dimensions to hard code the widgets into C++. NeXT was years ahead of VisualBasic, etc. Because macOS is UNIX it quickly became the best laptop for developers after the Windows vs Linux war was won. Linux powers the cloud and developers coding for the cloud love Mac's. Because the alternative was Windows with PuTTY vs. Linux which barely ran on most laptops at the time. At some point, there were more Mac's being carried at USENIX conferences. This is why Microsoft has added the WSL2, updated Windows Terminal, ported SQL Server to Linux, bought Github, allows Linux in Azure. Ported PowerShell to Linux / macOS. Most Silicon Valley Big Tech & startups use Mac's with some Linux for engineers. Linux is amazing as a server and cloud container OS. Lately, it has made tremendous progress on the desktop. But it's still so fragmented and it feels like attention to fine details is not in the Linux DNA like it is in macOS. I like the way macOS just works and manages to stay out of my way. With Linux Desktop I end up tinkering way too much as there are simply way too many options. Mac's feel like a polished and comfortable tool or an appliance while Linux is a full blown DIY mail order kit you will spend years fabricating in your garage. The 1984 Macintosh was the computer anyone could use. Adding UNIX and NeXTStep developer tools with a mature API at the right place at the right time is the reason for Apple's massive success.


Evolution in Pictures


NeXTStep



OS X Server 1.0



Mac OS X Public Beta



Bottom line, the menu bar paradigm is not going to change. It's baked into Apple culture. The original reason for the menu bar was to always be able to jam your mouse pointer up there and browse through the menu items. Whichever app has focus the menu will always be in the same place at the top of the screen. A menu bar is for novices. It acts like an app command reference as well as providing a shortcut key reference. It's a lot like whichkey in ViM / Emacs.


Personally? I don't care about the menus at all. On laptop screens I hide the menu bar and the dock. I use mostly keyboard shortcuts or trackpad gestures.

May 10, 2023 4:32 PM in response to kodiakcreativity

The answer is simply: no.


Menus belong to the apps in Mac world, not the window.


Two things that might help: One is to learn the simple keyboard shortcuts, most of which are common across all apps like ⌘N for new file or ⌘P for print etc


Other wise install and app like this:


https://apps.apple.com/ie/app/menumate/id518594271?mt=12


which you can invoke all the apps menus under your mouse.

May 10, 2023 7:15 PM in response to kodiakcreativity

No problem. Install a virtual machine, and then install an ARM64 (Aarch64) version of Linux, and you have everything in one place.


When it comes to a GUI interface, I’m macOS all the way.


But I spend all day ssh’ed into Linux development systems at work using Vim to develop kernel level file system software, protecting my session with tmux.


I prefer ssh over VNC (or MS Remote Desktop) and working with the Linux GUI and one of the Linux terminal emulators.

May 10, 2023 6:28 PM in response to James Brickley

Thank you for such a great answer! Its quite interesting to hear how it all came about.

I assumed it would be something set in stone, but it never hurt to ask. I will just have to get used to it. Menu strips actually seem to be on the decline with much modern software anyway, they don't fit well with many modern interfaces. It will just be an adjustment. So far I'm liking the mac, although I definitely don't prefer it over Linux. But I picked up this computer specifically for the pursuit of the creative arts, probably the one area where Mac excels moreso than any other. I will be sticking to Linux for my every day computing though. There are some little things that Mac does that are quite nice though. I do like how application settings seem to be in a standardized location on mac, with their own keyboard shortcut even. Linux programs have mostly followed the standard that Windows began, where half the time settings is called settings, the other half its called preferences, and it is commonly located under either edit or tools, and occasionally file. Its actually nice that on Mac they seem to always be in the same dedicated location. I generally prefer the way Linux does things, but Mac definitely has innovated well in some areas. And its just so nice when doing things like video editing to add features like streamdecks, jog shuttles, speed editors, space mice etc and actually have 1st party support for the hardware. That is one thing I'm really enjoying.

May 10, 2023 8:49 PM in response to BobHarris

+1 Parallels is the way to go at the moment if you truly require a full blown Linux VM. You will need an ARM64 distribution of Linux. You can't emulate x86_64 on ARM64 host hardware.


Personally, I use iTerm2, ssh, tmux, ViM, Emacs/Tramp and even Blink on an iPad while traveling. I've not yet needed to install a Linux VM except for some very specific scenarios that don't come up very often. Most all the Linux software runs fine on macOS. I've used Spice to remote desktop to Linux as well.


I am currently reviewing Warp.dev which is a new terminal with modern code editor features written in Rust. It has A.I. to help you compose complex commands, write scripts, etc. They will be adding collaboration terminal sharing features and literate programming run books. Early impression, it's mind blowing and game changing.

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Program Menus, can they be moved to the window itself?

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