Why are accessibility settings being ignored

numbles45 wrote:

The interesting question that you seem to have skipped was: "the apps and System Preferences aren't querying the TCC permissions from the same database. How can that be?"

There's only one database to query. However, there may be multiple apps. For example, many modern apps are "electron" apps. They consist of an HTML web browser wrapper around a cross-platform core. Even if they aren't truly "electron", sometimes apps use a similar strategy with a native UI wrapper around what is essentially a command-line tool. When they do this, those are multiple apps. Which one gets the TCC permissions? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. No one knows the answer, including the developer.)

Your response from BetterSnapTool is pretty good:

It can also happen if the code signature of an app changes for whatever reason (e.g. buggy update, broken disk, some other software that „accidentally“ breaks the signature). At least for BetterSnapTool the code signature hasn’t changed through updates.

There are a lot of those "whatever reasons". And it just so happens that these kinds of "haxie" tools are more likely than most to employ these techniques. So, in addition to what I mentioned above, consider some of these other scenarios:

buggy update - Any kind of auto-update mechanism is likely to trigger this. In theory, it is possible to update an app and its signature. It just doesn't happen bloody often.

broken disk - I have no idea what they are talking about there.

some other software that "accidentally" breaks the signature - All kinds of possibilities here. Ironically enough, some of these are these same system modification apps that are so popular. Monolingual will remove "foreign" (i.e. non-English) language from apps - breaking the signature. Little Snitch can interfere with virtually everything. Any kind of "security" software can cause similar problems.

Apple's Gatekeeper software lives up to its name. It checks an app's signature after an app has been first downloaded. But after that, Apple typically doesn't verify signatures. Apps also typically don't verify their signature either. So if a signature becomes invalid for whatever reason, nobody is going to know. But something like TCC that double-checks signatures is going to be the one to find it. Plus, sometimes these apps may try some tricks to avoid Gatekeeper problems. That's good for avoiding Gatekeeper problems, but not for avoiding TCC problems.

I’d really like to know whether this is something that needs to be addressed by Apple or if app developers are missing something here and need to be helped.

Does it matter? Whether the ultimate cause is Apple or 3rd party developers, there's nothing you can do to affect any change. Apple's software could very well have bugs. So could 3rd party apps. Every app is different. Can you use command line tools to hack around on the database and fix it for a time? Maybe.

I think one thing you can do is be careful with auto-updates for these kinds of apps. I think that would go a long ways towards alleviating this problem. Next time one breaks during an update, make a note of it. Uninstall the app completely, restart, then reinstall. I suspect you might find that certain apps are more likely to exhibit this particular problem than others. If that happens, then you might lean a little bit closer towards it being the fault of 3rd party developers. But still, it won't really mean anything.

First give this a try: boot into Safe Mode according to How to use safe mode on your Mac and test to see if the problem persists. Reboot normally and test again.

NOTE 1: Safe Mode boot can take up to 3 - 5 minutes as it's doing the following; 

• Verifies your startup disk and attempts to repair directory issues, if needed

• Loads only required kernel extensions (prevents 3rd party kernel/extensions from loading)

• Prevents Startup Items and Login Items from opening automatically

• Disables user-installed fonts 

• Deletes font caches, kernel cache, and other system cache files

NOTE 2: if you have a wireless keyboard with rechargeable batteries connect it with its charging cable before booting into Safe Mode. This makes it act as a wired keyboard as will insure a successful boot into Safe Mode.

Next, have you tried removing BetterSnapTool from the Accessibility pane with the "-" button and then add it back?

numbles45 wrote:

Hello and thank you for your help. I will definitely give this a try. The only problem I have with Safe mode is that it deactivates certain features, like wifi, so it's not practical to use it for a long period of time. At the same time, this issues I encounter with BetterSnapTool and Typinator don't arise systematically every time I start my iMac. I haven't tried removing BetterSnapTool from the Accessibility pane and then adding it back, but I will give it a try next time the issue arises. Hopefully, launching in Safe mode will clean up things.

Again, thank you for your kind assistance.

Perhaps the issue is, the computer is running a version Typinator that is designed for Sonoma that runs natively on Apple Silicon Computer

Which, this computer is not

They to offer an older version which may or may not resolve this ongoing issue

" Starting with version 8.12.1, Typinator is a Universal Application that runs natively on Apple Silicon processors. Older versions of Typinator basically work on Apple Silicon processors, but they are slower and require Rosetta. If you have a Mac with an Apple Silicon processor, we highly recommend updating to Typinator 9.0. "

numbles45 wrote:

Problem is that I cannot predict when the issue will arise again because I don't know what triggers the issue or even how to find out.

I'm not sure what that has to do with using Safe Mode. As long as there is no problem, boot in Normal mode. Should you need to to troubleshoot, boot in Safe Mode then restart in Normal Mode. That will often resolve the issue. Again, no one is suggesting that you try do do normal work while using Safe Mode.

numbles45 wrote:

According to the app developers, the issue lies with macOS:

That's what they always say.

The above issue has remained unresolved now for many months. Is there anything one can do for Apple to finally address this problem or does anyone know of a way to permanently fix the issue (without removing the apps!) ?

It's a bug in the app. You have many such apps. Sometimes they even go beyond bugs and apps try to hack your TCC database. That's why these problems happen.

numbles45 wrote:

I’d really like to know whether this is something that needs to be addressed by Apple or if app developers are missing something here and need to be helped.

In either of those cases, there's really nothing you can do other than provide information about what you are observing to Apple and the developer. Unless you are a developer yourself, it's unlikely that you are going to be able to ferret out the root cause of the problem.

numbles45 wrote:

Hello and thank you for your help. I will definitely give this a try. The only problem I have with Safe mode is that it deactivates certain features, like wifi, so it's not practical to use it for a long period of time.

Safe mode is not intended to be used for a long time. It's a troubleshooting tool.

User wrote " The only problem I have with Safe mode is that it deactivates certain features, like wifi "

 Safe Mode. This will perform a Disk Repair, clear cache files and only load Apple Software, extensions and fonts. The boot up will be slow and can take some time - Normal.

Safe Mode will also eliminate Third Party Software, extensions and drivers from loading.

It will only load the Minimum amount of Core Apple Processes to allow the the computer to function at a reduced Level of Performance 

From my experience, Safe Mode would not disable Wifi

That is, unless, the computer were running some Third Party Software that is Required to use a Third Party wifi Adapter

numbles45 wrote:

How can you be so sure? How should the developers debug this issue?

It's a well-known, long-term problem. There are lots of people who write and use these kinds of system hacks. Back in the day, people tried to call them "haxies" to make it sound more benign. All of this kind of code needs a user-granted entitlement to run on a modern operating system. But the code was developed 20 years ago and may or may not have been updated or reviewed for modern coding standards. It's a developer's job to debug these problems, not yours.

numbles45 wrote:

I'm posting the following interesting information from ChatGPT:

It's really pretty generic information. ChatGPT tends to spit out a lot of generic (sometimes inaccurate) information in response to a question. Unless the question is very carefully phrased with well defined parameters, the answer is usually too general to be of any substantive use.