169 GIGABYTES of "System data"??? Seriously??? And, I can't even access it? Why do they eve bother with selling 128GB storage?
I know. I'm sure I've offended sensibilities and apple will delete this shortly. We're even.
Mac mini, macOS 13.4
Could you check in Activity Monitor if some Spotlight processes like mds_stores or corespotlightd are writing lots of data to the disk? There seems to be a bug which has been present since Sonoma or Ventura which in some cases is especially active in Sequoia, perhaps when external USB drives are connected.
If the large amount of system data comes from Spotlight, it is written in the hidden .Spotlight-V100 folder at the root of the indexed volume.
Could you check in Activity Monitor if some Spotlight processes like mds_stores or corespotlightd are writing lots of data to the disk? There seems to be a bug which has been present since Sonoma or Ventura which in some cases is especially active in Sequoia, perhaps when external USB drives are connected.
If the large amount of system data comes from Spotlight, it is written in the hidden .Spotlight-V100 folder at the root of the indexed volume.
I don't do third party (except when I had no choice with safari down).
Safari down?
****Yes. Safari would only access the apple.com page. Nothing else. It wouldn't even go to communities on apple or anything else. *********
I also don't use Time Machine. I would never put TM on my ssd, anyways.
I'm not sure what you are saying about "put TM on your SSD". Time Machine stores backups on an external drive, which can be an SSD. ********Sorry, internal ssd*********
I see what you mean. The section in the statement below that reads " You can’t manage the contents of this category. The contents are managed by macOS, and the category varies in size depending on the current state of your Mac. You can manage your data that falls outside the other categories using the Finder or the third-party apps that created it." seems a bit cryptic. I thought it was referring to the other categories of storage. I still think it does.
That's from the help. And I see what you mean now. Unfortunately, that help text is simply wrong.
*******Ha! Got it!"
Still hovering at 169GB.
There are storage tools that will help you find this data.
I found one more file by using your option-go command and searching the library. com.google.keystone but LLC and Updater still remain.
There should have been three of those files. Again, unfortunately, those files will have little or nothing that connects them with the corresponding entries in the Background Activity list. In particular, the "Google LLC" part is actually only stored inside an encrypted security certificate. Even if you could search the entire hard drive, you'll never find it. Apple's just trying to be "helpful".
********As I said in the other post to you, I found those three. Thanks!!!***** I still don't exactly understand why I couldn't find them before ... oh, now I do! That's the user library you mentioned before! The files were in the user/library. This doesn't show up through navigating to the users/<username>/library (the library folder just doesn't show up!) but the option-go>library gets there. Weird.
Whickwithy wrote:
169 GIGABYTES of "System data"??? Seriously???
It's not really "system data". It's just "other" data that can't be categorized as anything else.
And, I can't even access it?
You can access it and delete it, if necessary. There are various storage management tools that will help you find it. Just be careful with those tools. They show you everything. If you delete the wrong files, you could suffer catastrophic data loss. And people often go down a rabbit hold of trying to delete tiny apps and preference files. That won't at all. You need to find files that are 10+ GB in size each and delete those, assuming you don't need them, of course.
Why do they eve bother with selling 128GB storage?
I don't think they do sell devices with only 128 GB storage anymore. But it's the same problem with 256 GB or sometimes with 500 GB drives. There are valid use cases for those smaller drives. But in most cases, it's people who don't want to pay Apple's prices for extra storage and think they can outsmart Apple. It never works out.
I know. I'm sure I've offended sensibilities and apple will delete this shortly. We're even.
Not at all. This is a very common complaint.
Whickwithy wrote:
The only reason I went searching for unusual aspects of the system is because of the many other problems I encountered with 15.0 release. 15.0.1 seems to have fixed all of them except for one remnant left because of Safari not working. I made the mistake of downloading Chrome (ended up using DuckDuckGo (for the interim), which is pretty fine indeed). Chrome, though, left some remnants when I deleted it that I find in "Login items and Extensions". Google LLC and Google Updater remain in the "Allow in the background". I have them both turned off. I am beginning to think that Google LLC and Google Updater may not even exist any longer. I can't find a trace of them. But, I really wish I had never downloaded chrome. I'd love to assure myself they are really gone.
In the Finder, hold down the option key and choose "Library" from the "Go" menu. From there, go into the "LaunchAgents" folder. You should see the 3 Google files. You can drag them to the trash.
In the same "Library" folder, there is also an "Application Support" folder that contains a "Google" folder. You can delete that "Google" folder too.
Those Google plist files from the LaunchAgents folder are quite unusual. They are empty plist files. They have valid property list XML data, but with no actual contents. I've never seen another app do that. I'm not sure what the purpose of that might be. I keep Chrome installed just for one specific test of my web site that is difficult to do in Safari. But I keep those Google files disabled in System Settings too.
The thing is that System Data seems to adjust to the size of storage available. I wish they would just say that.
It shouldn't be doing that. Sometimes there are real problems that cause "system data" to grow too large.
In my previous reply I suggested certain storage tools can be useful to track down what is causing this data. In the past, it was usually Time Machine local snapshots. But in the past couple of years, I've seen more people report that it is caused by some misbehaving 3rd party app that is creating log files or something without end.
I can't recommend any particular storage tool because I wrote one of them.
If you read the info on System Data, the way Apple explains it is that System Data is not available to the end user. I appreciate the insights and, if I really hit a wall, I will check into it.
I think you might be seeing something else. Remember, in System Settings > Storage, what it calls "System Data" is most definitely not system data. It's just whatever can't be categorized as anything else.
Are you sure that it is just 'other data'? I am beginning to think that may be where virtual memory resides. That would make a lot of sense.
The storage display doesn't have a row for "Virtual memory". So if you were using any swap space, then it would be classified as part of "system data".
Apple's design philosophy is such that they do not explain what (in their sole opinion) the user doesn't need to know. For the ultimate expression of that philosophy consider the iPhone and its equivalent operating systems for the iPad, the Watch, the AppleTV... etc. They are all essentially computers that do most of the same things. Does the average user know how much storage they have? Probably not. How much memory? Almost certainly not. Do they understand how those system resources are dynamically allocated, how much "extra" memory they may have or how much "system data" are being used at any given moment? Absolutely not. Should they care? In Apple's opinion, no.
That design philosophy has been creeping into macOS for at least a decade and a half now, to the point their respective operating systems are almost indistinguishable from one another. They share many operating system components that are literally completely identical.
Many years ago Steve Jobs forecast the death of Macs. Sure, he said they will continue to exist in one form or another, but he compared them to "trucks" that do the heavy lifting typically required by major system programmers and design engineers, analogous to over the road trucks that deliver goods for the masses who don't drive them or know anything about how they work or why. Those "trucks" are creating their replacements in their iPhones and iPads. One day they're probably going to be creating their own replacements, and the need for "trucks" (Macs) will go away also. We won't miss them any more than we miss mimeograph machines.
Anyway... the "problem" you describe isn't something Apple concerns themselves with. It's a dynamically allocated resource that the operating system will make available if and when needed, and you can't do anything to change that fact. Can an insufficient amount of it cause problems? It certainly can. If you don't have enough storage, then you don't have enough. Buy more next time.
The System Data category is described in Find and delete files on your Mac - Apple Support. If you have a question about it, by all means ask, but Apple's description is complete and accurate, and difficult to improve upon.
Why do they eve bother with selling 128GB storage?
Why do people bother buying it? Seems to me that different people have different needs. If there were a one size fits all Mac, Apple could simplify their product line. That's not something I would advocate.
etresoft wrote:
It shouldn't be doing that. Sometimes there are real problems that cause "system data" to grow too large.
A few months ago my iPhone's System Data gradually and inexplicably started to balloon in size as reported by General > Storage. I noticed it only out of to morbid curiosity, and consistent with that morbid curiosity I did exactly nothing while it continued to grow to an enormous size, approaching the capacity of that iPhone's storage. Obviously no non-Apple system modifications were a factor nor was I running any beta releases. Then one day it simply shrank back to where it had been. There were no intervening software updates, and I was backing up the iPhone periodically as usual.
There were no overt performance manifestations of that phenomena, so it remains a mystery. It hasn't happened since.
Come to think about it maybe iOS doesn't do anything about System Data until it reaches a high water mark.
Despite many common complaints I have never observed this behavior on a Mac, and I have tried to duplicate it. I'm continuing to experiment. Clearly people do things with Macs that are not possible to do with an iPhone which complicates troubleshooting. Regarding Macs, I have my suspicions (the usual culprits) but the fact this happened on an iPhone gives me pause.
The salient point though is that there were never any observable detrimental effects. No problems downloading anything, using anything, doing anything, battery life remained as it always had... etc. Is it a bug? Who knows. Can we do anything about it? No. Not on an iPhone anyway.
Whickwithy wrote:
I swear I searched high and low for anything with Google in the name before. Nothing.
Standard searches will not include any of the interesting locations.
There was no folder in library but there was a folder in Application Support. That still didn't get rid of the LLC or Updater note in Background activity.
It's hard to say. Maybe you didn't find it. The name is "LaunchAgents". These are the items to the Background Activity is referring to.
However, I am just basing this on what I see on my computer. It's entirely possible that since I have the Google Updater turn off, that you have a newer version than I do and your launch agents could be in a different location. Did I mention how complicated this operating system can get?
I don't do third party (except when I had no choice with safari down).
Safari down?
I also don't use Time Machine. I would never put TM on my ssd, anyways.
I'm not sure what you are saying about "put TM on your SSD". Time Machine stores backups on an external drive, which can be an SSD.
I see what you mean. The section in the statement below that reads " You can’t manage the contents of this category. The contents are managed by macOS, and the category varies in size depending on the current state of your Mac. You can manage your data that falls outside the other categories using the Finder or the third-party apps that created it." seems a bit cryptic. I thought it was referring to the other categories of storage. I still think it does.
That's from the help. And I see what you mean now. Unfortunately, that help text is simply wrong.
Still hovering at 169GB.
There are storage tools that will help you find this data.
I found one more file by using your option-go command and searching the library. com.google.keystone but LLC and Updater still remain.
There should have been three of those files. Again, unfortunately, those files will have little or nothing that connects them with the corresponding entries in the Background Activity list. In particular, the "Google LLC" part is actually only stored inside an encrypted security certificate. Even if you could search the entire hard drive, you'll never find it. Apple's just trying to be "helpful".
EtreCheck should reveal any remaining Google components. You will not find them with a simple Finder search.
As I frequently state, legitimate software makes no effort to hide itself behind obscure, incomprehensible or hidden file names. The most charitable comment I have about Google in that limited regard is that they're not as bad as they used to be about that. Bear in mind they are beyond desperate to get Mac users to install Google on their Macs — and everything else possible — by whatever means necessary.
Whickwithy wrote:
The thing is that System Data seems to adjust to the size of storage available.
Correct!
I wish they would just say that.
I don't disagree, but at some point more in-depth or technically accurate explanations tend to elicit more questions, which lead to more "noise" in the form of engagement on minutia that don't really matter.
John Galt wrote:
A few months ago my iPhone's System Data gradually and inexplicably started to balloon in size as reported by General > Storage.
I have to say, when it comes to iOS, I have no idea. And I really enjoy blissful ignorance on that platform. My old iPhone 11 still seems to run just as good as the day I got it. It's still on iOS 17, of course. Maybe I'll update in March or so.
Despite many common complaints I have never observed this behavior on a Mac, and I have tried to duplicate it. I'm continuing to experiment. Clearly people do things with Macs that are not possible to do with an iPhone which complicates troubleshooting. Regarding Macs, I have my suspicions (the usual culprits) but the fact this happened on an iPhone gives me pause.
Anything that happens on iPhones is eventually going to happen on Macs. I think this problem happens on Mac so much just because people fill up their hard drive. The only notice when they go to update to the latest version and freak out when they don't have enough free storage. They check and it says 300 GB available. Obviously that's confusing. So they start deleting files like mad. They check again and now it says they have 280 GB available! 😄 Cue the post on the Apple Support Community.
The salient point though is that there were never any observable detrimental effects. No problems downloading anything, using anything, doing anything, battery life remained as it always had... etc. Is it a bug? Who knows. Can we do anything about it? No. Not on an iPhone anyway.
iOS definitely seems to handle it better. I had recently filled up my old iPad and never noticed any problem until I couldn't add any more WWDC videos.
On the Mac, it's different. I recently saw this thread where an overly full hard drive was causing significant performance degradation on an SSD. And the drive still had a relatively large amount of storage left (26 GB). They could have downloaded a new OS update with that. The OP was ready to open up the computer and replace the hard drive. All it needed was an erase and reinstall and its running like new.
They check and it says 300 GB available. Obviously that's confusing. So they start deleting files like mad. They check again and now it says they have 280 GB available!
You can even have less storage available, at least temporarily.
And the drive still had a relatively large amount of storage left (26 GB). They could have downloaded a new OS update with that. The OP was ready to open up the computer and replace the hard drive. All it needed was an erase and reinstall and its running like new.
I saw that post. EtreCheck revealed a multitude of contributing factors the OP brought on himself, and could probably have resolved easily enough. I was about to suggest posting a new EtreCheck report to point out the differences, but it the OP is satisfied with the result, fine.
Thank you, again! I swear I searched high and low for anything with Google in the name before. Nothing. There was no folder in library but there was a folder in Application Support. That still didn't get rid of the LLC or Updater note in Background activity.
I don't do third party (except when I had no choice with safari down). I also don't use Time Machine. I would never put TM on my ssd, anyways.
I see what you mean. The section in the statement below that reads " You can’t manage the contents of this category. The contents are managed by macOS, and the category varies in size depending on the current state of your Mac. You can manage your data that falls outside the other categories using the Finder or the third-party apps that created it." seems a bit cryptic. I thought it was referring to the other categories of storage. I still think it does.
It seems that virtual memory could be quite huge.
Still hovering at 169GB.
I found one more file by using your option-go command and searching the library. com.google.keystone but LLC and Updater still remain.
I got rid of the background plists! Thanks, Etresoft!
It's weird, though. I searched on Google and found nothing when I searched the drive. When I used your option-go command, THEN did a search, they all showed up! That is very useful. I deleted the files from the search window, so I'm not sure which folder they were in. It was not apps support or google. I deleted those files the first time on cmd-go/library.
as far as the previous post....
I'm sorry. I do not know how you link to previous posts but, without that, I guess my emails get cryptic.
Let me try this:
But, let's take it to the limit. If I have no files, apps, etc on the ssd and it has filled it so full with 'System Data' that I can't download the latest operating system then either they shouldn't be selling that size drive or something is broken.
Just saying. I have not experienced that.
So what are you saying? Going through the list of hypothetical things that could go wrong? One down, 10^38372988373 to go!
***No, this was in response to John Galt's comment that someone needs a bigger drive if they have no room for updating their OS. ****
As I wrote elsewhere in here, since Sequoia 15.0 seemed to be causing so many problems, I started investigating and ran across this anomaly.
What problems? Please be specific. Sequoia has been one of the most trouble free operating system releases that I can remember. A few unfortunate people have succumbed to internet misinformation and made their lives far more complicated than they should have.
*** 1. Safari stopped working (Intel Mac). 2) I close an app and the os (M1 Mac) goes to never-never land. I have to do cmd-tab or change window to get it to pay attention to anything. My multiple desktops with large array of rotating images caused M1 Mac to crash. I had to reduce to using the same images on all desktops rather than individual folders for each. 2) still remains an awkwardness but I can live with it. Someone said it was because of Stage Manager. I love the multiple desktops but I'm guessing they are moving away from that. Sequoia 15.0.1 fixed that. ***
That is significant because of how insanely complicated the operating system is internally. It's easy the most complicated operating system ever made. If you go looking for problems, I guarantee you'll find them. And not by the ones or two, or even by the dozens, I'm talking thousands upon thousands of bugs.
If you are having a specific problem, please describe the problem. Describe what you were attempting, what you expected to happen, and what happened differently. Please be specific. A screenshot never hurts. But if you're just looking for problems, you can spend the rest of your life doing that. You'll be long dead before you find them all.
***sorry for making it confusing***
Thanks, John.
I think what is disturbing is that there is not much of an explanation of System Data. This is the problem with using communities (as everyone does nowadays) to explain things.
A nice clear answer (not in your link or the ? link on System Preferences) that Apple will make sure System Data does not overwhelm storage would be nice. In other words, if I read between the lines of everything I have had to study (hours more than I want to spend), it says that the storage is flexible in size.
By the way, I miswrote as I wrote 128 GB. The smallest is actually 256 GB. But, yeah, I'd rather store in a removable drive, for most everything. As I don't use icloud and have never had a real problem with storage, it just bobbles my mind that they can't be clearer about System Data.
Much more troublesome is the 8 GBytes of RAM that choked when Sequoia was downloaded. With the new version of Sequoia, some of my problems have gone away (like Safari not working on my intel-based Mac). It also seems that the crashing of my M1 Mac, due to my interest in desktop images, has gone away, as well. So, my concern with Sequoia has faded to some extent. I'm hoping it was just a poorly executed release (in other words, mismanagement) rather than something much longer term.
169 GIGABYTES of "System data"???
