'wdutil' requires sudo
'networksetup -getairportnetwork en0' *falsely* reports "You are not associated with an Airport network."
Please explain 1: how to get the signal/noise stats *from the command line* without sudo, and 2: exactly what security risk is mitigated by blocking access to this information without authentication.
[Re-Titled by Moderator]
upstageleft wrote:
I will set myself up on my new machine with a conscious focus on developing routines that will port to a Linux OS (on whatever hardware I end up with) with as little fuss as possible.
And Linux command line tools never need sudo. 🙄
At least I'm in front my Mac instead of my iPad now. And all my errands and chores are over for the day. I can now surf the internet for a bit instead of working on taxes. Let's see if I can figure out how to get the signal/noise stats *from the command line* without sudo.
Maybe system_profiler does it. Let's see what it reports:
/usr $ system_profiler SPAirPortDataType
Wi-Fi:
Software Versions:
...
Interfaces:
en0:
...
AirDrop: Supported
Auto Unlock: Supported
Status: Connected
Current Network Information:
[redacted]:
PHY Mode: 802.11ax
Channel: 149 (5GHz, 80MHz)
Country Code: CA
Network Type: Infrastructure
Security: WPA2 Personal
Signal / Noise: -53 dBm / -90 dBm
Transmit Rate: 720
MCS Index: 7
Other Local Wi-Fi Networks:
[redacted]:
PHY Mode: 802.11b/g/n
Channel: 1 (2GHz, 20MHz)
Network Type: Infrastructure
Security: WPA2 Personal
Signal / Noise: -56 dBm / -92 dBm
...
Yeah. I guess system_profiler does it. But why do I get the feeling that this information won't be good enough?
upstageleft wrote:
'wdutil' requires sudo
'networksetup -getairportnetwork en0' *falsely* reports "You are not associated with an Airport network."
Please explain 1: how to get the signal/noise stats *from the command line* without sudo, and 2: exactly what security risk is mitigated by blocking access to this information without authentication.
[Re-Titled by Moderator]
is this local or remote...
locally hold the Option key and click open your Wifi icon in the menubar.
upstageleft wrote:
'wdutil' requires sudo
'networksetup -getairportnetwork en0' *falsely* reports "You are not associated with an Airport network."
Please explain 1: how to get the signal/noise stats *from the command line* without sudo
You’re running networksetup, so sudo seems reasonable. There are many low-level networking tools. Perhaps others report this information.
2: exactly what security risk is mitigated by blocking access to this information without authentication.
Nobody outside of Apple knows the actual reason. But there are many possibilities. The biggest risk is malware changing the user’s network. Another possibility would be just querying the network to look up the user’s actual location, or to see if the user is on an interesting corporate or government network.
Thank you, Leroy,
I appreciate your response, but please note that I was specifically asking for a command-line option, and not a GUI method, for obtaining the desired information. The mechanism is deployed within a script that runs automatically and displays wifi status and signal quality information without requiring user interaction.
You’ll need to use a launchd daemon. Or use sudo.
TN3179: Understanding local network privacy | Apple Developer Documentation
How to get BSSID Wifi is connected to fro… - Apple Community
Extra-ordinary Networking | Apple Developer Forums
I appreciate the conscientious attention to security concerns.
I am not an application developer, but instead a habitual customizer of my own workspace. As such, I use tools that I can adapt to readily without having to learn how to be a full-stack engineer.
I use a utility which allows me to write javascript modules that run (under node.js) either cli scripts that I write or utilities the system provides, in order to provide me details about my system that I find useful, such as the name of my current wi-fi network and the signal-to-noise ratio of the connection.
These details are presented on my desktop specifically so that they are available without requiring interaction that may interrupt my workflow.
What I'd like, and I think I am not alone in this, is for there to be significant granularity in the application of security mechanisms so that power users can access the full features of the general computing environment without having to run the extra marathon of becoming application developers.
Sure, protect location information from specious tools. Maybe provide some sort of sandbox for administrator-level users to run scripts that execute commands without jumping through hoops, so long as it is all being done locally.
The assumption should be that if I have access to the physical machine, and I have administrator-level privileges on it, then I should able to anything at all that I want on that machine, period. But, anyone remotely connecting into that machine to do anything at all should have all the hoops to jump through.
Yes, automated data portability and reliable security are problematically opposed concerns. If I have access to my data through a remote connection, then anyone having physical access to my hardware may have the same access unless we can lock down either the hardware itself, or the access provided, so there are going to be hoops somewhere. But what seems to get lost in the conversation is the fact that the signal/noise ratio of my wifi connection from moment to moment *may* be able to provide someone with extremely sophisticated equipment and serious motivation a clue as to my physical location, but the statistical likelihood of that specific data being a real threat is close to nil, so it should not be buried behind the same kind of security as the hardware MAC address of my wifi device.
The macOS 15 network privacy requirements are what they are.
If you’d like more or different options available, log feedback: Bug Reporting - Apple Developer
Or contact whoever provided and is supporting that JavaScript tool, and suggest an enhancement there.
I usually run daemons for system-wide background monitoring functions : Technical Note TN2083: Daemons and Agents
(The Lingon all makes creating the necessary plist files easier, too.)
For connection monitoring, I usually use the tools built into the local Wi-Fi network.
Another potential option is a shortcut such as this: https://github.com/intuitibits/shortcuts?tab=readme-ov-file
That My Wi-Fi shortcut works on iPadOS 18, and may also work on macOS 15.
upstageleft wrote:
I am not an application developer, but instead a habitual customizer of my own workspace. As such, I use tools that I can adapt to readily without having to learn how to be a full-stack engineer.
Then you're setting yourself up for a really frustrating experience.
The assumption should be that if I have access to the physical machine, and I have administrator-level privileges on it, then I should able to anything at all that I want on that machine, period.
This idea is directly opposed to Apple's modern security model. The end user has more privileges than even root. And Apple itself trumps both.
But what seems to get lost in the conversation is the fact that the signal/noise ratio of my wifi connection from moment to moment *may* be able to provide someone with extremely sophisticated equipment and serious motivation a clue as to my physical location, but the statistical likelihood of that specific data being a real threat is close to nil
You don't know that. Honest end users are often blissfully ignorant of the vast scale of fraud that happens on the internet every day. All of those people consider Apple to be enemy #1. There is a global network of "security" companies and Apple's largest competitors that have setup divisions dedicated to hacking Apple products - all in the name of end user security, of course.
I've got a busy day today. All I have time to do is encourage you to re-read my original reply. I think you're just using the wrong tool. There are lots of low-level networking tools. Maybe another one will do a better job of giving you this information.
But, to be honest, you're really on the wrong platform entirely. This kind of low-level, non-developer, activity is extremely difficult on the Mac. Consider how you would do this on iOS. Then recognize that Apple killed macOS years ago. What you're running now is just a skinned version of iOS, running on its native ARM platform, with a few additional compatibility frameworks.
I've been a Mac owner since the 1980's, and was very pleased to see Mac OS X come along, as I was also a unix user. I have well understood since then that my tendency to rely upon the command line interface as much as the GUI on a Mac made me an outlier. However, I appreciated the solid reliability of the hardware and the OS working in concert, while retaining the ability to customize my user experience in ways that really complemented my work style.
For several years, I have felt the walls closing in on me whenever I upgraded so as not to fall too far behind and lose the support of the apps I do rely on, but your final paragraph really drives home the point. I am sad to think that I may have just purchased the last Mac that I will ever buy, unless I determine a way to completely jailbreak a brand new one and install whichever flavor of Linux feels like the best replacement. :-(
I was never evangelical about my taste for Macs, though I was vocal about my antipathy for Windows, so I'm sure Apple will not miss me.
I thank you for your time, thoughts, information, and suggestions. I will set myself up on my new machine with a conscious focus on developing routines that will port to a Linux OS (on whatever hardware I end up with) with as little fuss as possible.
This addresses just one of the things that I need, and I do appreciate it.
Your response from last night that I was addressing in my previous comment seems to have been removed (leaving my comments lacking critical context -- boo!), and in it you made a very salient point about the philosophical direction Apple is heading in with security and control, and the fact that movement in that direction further freezes out those of who strongly believe that buying something means we should be able to use it in whatever way best meets our own needs regardless of the desires of the manufacturer.
etresoft wrote:
...
This idea is directly opposed to Apple's modern security model. The end user has more privileges than even root. And Apple itself trumps both.
...
But, to be honest, you're really on the wrong platform entirely. This kind of low-level, non-developer, activity is extremely difficult on the Mac. Consider how you would do this on iOS. Then recognize that Apple killed macOS years ago. What you're running now is just a skinned version of iOS, running on its native ARM platform, with a few additional compatibility frameworks.
So thank you for the help with getting wifi stats. I don't want to get into a discussion of the difference between buying and licensing (hardware vs software), but I do understand that Apple has a *legal* position it is protecting.
This is why I have for the last couple of decades tried to make sure that any data/content I produce on my computer is kept in open source formats, or formats with such broad-based usage that I will never be tied to closed source applications to access it (plain text/html/png/jpg/gif/mp4/mp3/pdf).
I still have (and can still access and use without complication) digital files I made 35+ years ago, on my first Mac. My personal digital archives remain just as accessible as the day they were made, whatever day that was, because that data, that history, belongs to me, not to Apple, and not to whomever makes the software that I use. How many people, at this point in the history of computing, can say that?
We should *all* be able to.
upstageleft wrote:
This addresses just one of the things that I need, and I do appreciate it.
Didn't that answer them both?
Your second question was simply invalid. There are always software updates, bug fixes, and security considerations. It's impossible for anyone outside of Apple to know exactly why any particular change was made. There may not have been any security considerations at all. Maybe it was just a random change to support some new feature, new hardware, etc. Considering the tool is "networksetup", it makes perfect sense for it to require root privileges. Just because you were always using the wrong tool doesn't mean that Apple did anything wrong by changing it.
Your response from last night that I was addressing in my previous comment seems to have been removed (leaving my comments lacking critical context -- boo!)
I don't recall any deletions or modification in this thread, other than your question being retitled.
movement in that direction further freezes out those of who strongly believe that buying something means we should be able to use it in whatever way best meets our own needs regardless of the desires of the manufacturer.
So? Maybe that was the point. 😄
So thank you for the help with getting wifi stats. I don't want to get into a discussion of the difference between buying and licensing (hardware vs software), but I do understand that Apple has a *legal* position it is protecting.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
This is why I have for the last couple of decades tried to make sure that any data/content I produce on my computer is kept in open source formats, or formats with such broad-based usage that I will never be tied to closed source applications to access it (plain text/html/png/jpg/gif/mp4/mp3/pdf).
You can add either "-xml" or "-json" to your system_profiler command to emit data in those respective open formats.
I still have (and can still access and use without complication) digital files I made 35+ years ago, on my first Mac. My personal digital archives remain just as accessible as the day they were made, whatever day that was, because that data, that history, belongs to me, not to Apple, and not to whomever makes the software that I use. How many people, at this point in the history of computing, can say that?
I have no idea what this has to do with your question. If you don't want to use Apple products, fine. Get rid of them. You aren't going to hurt anyone's feelings. Apple has plenty of customers, too many, in fact. They can afford to curate their customer base to suit their own needs, without any regard to yours.
How do I get command line access to Wi-Fi signal and noise values without sudo in macOS Sequoia?
