Virus Scan

No problem. 🙂

My wife got one of these on Win XP just opening an email through her company's Outlook Exchange link. I had to go over to the Mac Pro to see how to remove it and download the necessary software you need to do so.

My niece also got hit by one of these last year. They brought their laptop over to my house so we could clean it off.

IF you can get online with another computer and bring the software you need over to the infected computer with a flash drive, they're not that hard to get rid of. And so far, there have been a lot of very nice folks making the removal software and instructions available for free.

Kurt Lang wrote:

Well, you don't address these obvious anti-virus scammers,...

As Thomas noted, these attacks (and that's what they are) have nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of AV software.

As you know, they are every bit as effective at removing viruses from Macs as Norton. I simply don't follow your argument about why these anti-virus scam companies are different than others.

Here's a look at one of many like this:
http://www.2-spyware.com/remove-antivirus-2010.html

Yes, this site claims that it "uses misleading advertisements to gain a purchase", something that Thomas admits Norton also does. Look, I get it - this company seems more brazen and obvious, and goes further down the road of damaging the user's computer, while Symantec maintains a veneer of respectability, pretending that the misrepresentation of its software is 'simplification', and that the difficulty people have in removing it is unintended, but it's a sliding scale. Some are worse than others, but they are all in the same game.

As you know, they are every bit as effective at removing viruses from Macs as Norton.

Is reading difficult for you? I clearly explained that they are NOT AV software of any kind. They have a FAKE AV like interface that show you a list of non existent viruses on your PC. You pay a ransom to get it off your system. They do not, and cannot scan for any kind of real viruses. They ARE the virus.

Kurt Lang wrote:

As you know, they are every bit as effective at removing viruses from Macs as Norton.

Is reading difficult for you? I clearly explained that they are NOT AV software of any kind. They have a FAKE AV like interface that show you a list of non existent viruses on your PC. You pay a ransom to get it off your system. They do not, and cannot scan for any kind of real viruses. They ARE the virus.

I read it, and I understood it, now, please, do the same. This 'fake' anti-virus is every bit as effective at removing viruses from the Mac because there *are no viruses for the Mac*. I get that you think that making an interface that shows a list of non-existant viruses is worse than making a scanner that scans for viruses that don't exist, maybe it is, but they are the same kind of scam.

Kurt Lang wrote:
You pay a ransom to get it off your system. They do not, and cannot scan for any kind of real viruses.

No, paying the ransom does not remove it from the system - paying the ransom just ensures that the thing still runs, warning you of threats that don't exist, and not able to scan for any kind of real viruses. That is exactly how Norton works. You pay every year, to have the thing claim to remove stuff that it can't remove because there are no real viruses for the Mac.
I know you're invested in thinking the two business models are fundamentally different, and I agree that one is worse than the other, but these two companies are doing essentially the same thing - asking people to pay them to 'remove' something they can't remove, because it doesn't exist.

I read it, and I understood it, now, please, do the same.

No, you're clearly NOT reading. How did you manage to miss every reference I made to Windows and PCs? Never once did I say these fake AV software were for the Mac. They won't even run on a Mac. Not directly in OS X anyway. You'd have to contract them on a Windows Boot Camp partition, or while running Windows via Parallels.

No, paying the ransom does not remove it from the system - paying the ransom just ensures that the thing still runs, warning you of threats that don't exist, and not able to scan for any kind of real viruses.

Still NOT reading. Nothing to do with a Mac. Nothing to do with real AV software. The page I linked to shows that they themselves are the malware. Even after you pay the ransom fee, they won't scan for any kind of real viruses in Windows because they can't. They will always return false information.

That is exactly how Norton works. You pay every year, to have the thing claim to remove stuff that it can't remove because there are no real viruses for the Mac.

No. Norton actually can scan for viruses. It won't find any in OS X, since there aren't any, but it will find Windows viruses attached to your incoming email. Which is what Mac users do use AV software for. And then usually only because it's required in either a business or a college, or they won't even let your Mac access the servers.

You acknowledge, I think, that there are companies who scam people using anti-virus scare tactics by selling them products that don't do what the company claims they will do, are not needed, or cause problems, and yet you don't want to call them anti-virus company scammers?

Not at all.

1) Are you claiming that commercial AV companies are selling Mac users AV tools that won't find and remove Mac malware? If true, it would be a scam to sell it as Mac AV software. I have never heard of such a case, however.

2) You keep saying they're not needed, yet you admit the malware exists. I'll agree that the cautious users doesn't need it, but as I _know for a fact_ that people are being infected all the time, it cannot be claimed that nobody needs it.

3) Causing problems is hardly a scam. Every program has bugs... is every software company a scammer?

a popup or ad appears from a company telling them they need anti-virus protection, which they don't, and trying to separate them from their cash in return for 'fixing' a problem that doesn't exist. That looks and quacks like a scam to me

Of course it's a scam! It's also completely and totally unrelated to AV companies. This is social engineering used to spread Windows malware.

What is your definition of a scam unless it is misrepresenting your product?

I never said anything about misrepresenting a product. I said it's misrepresentation to call a trojan a virus. Is it a scam to do so? No.

Trojan removers are quite different from anti-virus scanners. Of course, you know that.

Sure, trojan removers are very different. They only target one thing and are completely useless for anything else.

I had a conversation with someone a few months ago having some strange e-mail problems. I told him that he didn't have malware, just a hacked e-mail account, but that if he wanted to make himself feel better, he could run a scan with [ClamXav|http://www.clamxav.com>. Lo and behold, what turns up but a copy of iServices, presumably installed by his teenage son! How was he to know what trojan remover to use, or even to use one at all, when an expert was telling him he didn't have malware?

AV software is not necessary for most people, but for those few who legitimately have symptoms of some kind of infection and who can't trust the common sense of all users of the machine, it's a life-saver. If you pick the right one, and not a known troublemaker.

I can't imagine how you think my posts disguise the dangers of trojans.

Because this is the first time I've seen that you've actually mentioned them at all, much less admitted their existence. You've been extremely dismissive and condescending to anyone who dares ask something about viruses.

Kurt Lang wrote:
How did you manage to miss every reference I made to Windows and PCs?

I didn't miss it, but I am wondering what the relevance of it is.

Never once did I say these fake AV software were for the Mac. They won't even run on a Mac. Not directly in OS X anyway. You'd have to contract them on a Windows Boot Camp partition, or while running Windows via Parallels.

So what point are you trying to make?

No, paying the ransom does not remove it from the system - paying the ransom just ensures that the thing still runs, warning you of threats that don't exist, and not able to scan for any kind of real viruses.

Still NOT reading. Nothing to do with a Mac. Nothing to do with real AV software. The page I linked to shows that they themselves are the malware. Even after you pay the ransom fee, they won't scan for any kind of real viruses in Windows because they can't. They will always return false information.

Right, I understand - although I don't know why you are harping on about Windows.

That is exactly how Norton works. You pay every year, to have the thing claim to remove stuff that it can't remove because there are no real viruses for the Mac.

No. Norton actually can scan for viruses. It won't find any in OS X, since there aren't any, but it will find Windows viruses attached to your incoming email.

OK, so you admit that Norton is misleading customers into thinking that it is scanning for viruses that could infect them? That is the same thing that other company's marketing what you call 'fake' anti-virus software for the Mac are claiming, right?
The difference, and this is what you hang the term 'scam' on I presume, is that Norton might actually tell you about viruses that could not infect you, but could infect someone else, although it won't go so far as to tell you outright that you couldn't be infected?
You know, you can tie yourself in knots over this if you really want to come up with definitions that are so far from normal usage they sound like Norton ad copy, or you can accept that these two companies are different ends of the same business model. It's up to you.

This 'fake' anti-virus is every bit as effective at removing viruses from the Mac because there *are no viruses for the Mac*.

sigh Still sticking stubbornly to your insistence on a literal interpretation of the word "viruses" and no mention whatsoever about the Mac trojans that legit AV software does find and remove. By equating fake AV software and real AV software because there are no Mac viruses, you imply to those who don't already know better that those trojans don't exist, which you also admit you know is not true. And yet you tell me "I can't imagine how you think my posts disguise the dangers of trojans."

I don't know why you are harping on about Windows.

Because the fake AV scams you keep bringing up are social engineering designed to spread _Windows viruses_. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the Mac or with real AV software.

I didn't miss it, but I am wondering what the relevance of it is.
Right, I understand - although I don't know why you are harping on about Windows.

The relevance was your lumping all AV software as "scams". The only AV scamming software is such as those I linked to. They are not AV software at all. The only way to describe AV software that is actually a scam was to refer to the Windows malware.

So what point are you trying to make?

The point is that while real AV software like Norton have little to no use for a Mac user, they are not scams. They actually do scan for real malware. There's just almost nothing to find on a Mac. Just a few Trojans.

OK, so you admit that Norton is misleading customers into thinking that it is scanning for viruses that could infect them?

Not completely misleading, but they do love to refer to ancient Mac viruses (from OS 9 and earlier) that are completely neutered in OS X. Misleading enough though that they should feel shame for some of their exploitive advertising. They also call what OS X malware there is viruses when they know full well they do not fall under the classification of a virus.

Thomas A Reed wrote:

You acknowledge, I think, that there are companies who scam people using anti-virus scare tactics by selling them products that don't do what the company claims they will do, are not needed, or cause problems, and yet you don't want to call them anti-virus company scammers?

Not at all.
1) Are you claiming that commercial AV companies are selling Mac users AV tools that won't find and remove Mac malware? If true, it would be a scam to sell it as Mac AV software. I have never heard of such a case, however.

Here is one: http://blog.intego.com/?s=macguard "+Intego has spotted one such company, claiming to sell Macintosh antivirus software. MacGuard+"
Intego reports that the same company that sells WinGuard is also selling MacGuard. It's an obvious scam. It won't remove viruses from your Mac, but then neither will Norton.

2) You keep saying they're not needed, yet you admit the malware exists. I'll agree that the cautious users doesn't need it, but as I _know for a fact_ that people are being infected all the time, it cannot be claimed that nobody needs it.

Nobody needs virus protection. Trojan removal tools, as I have said, are useful.

3) Causing problems is hardly a scam. Every program has bugs... is every software company a scammer?

No, but it depends whether you believe that Norton's notoriously difficult removal process is a bug, or part of their business model. I concede I have no proof that it's deliberate, but it certainly isn't in their interests to improve it, and they have systematically failed to do so over many years. The main scam I am accusing them of is misleading their customers into thinking that they need active virus protection in the first place..

a popup or ad appears from a company telling them they need anti-virus protection, which they don't, and trying to separate them from their cash in return for 'fixing' a problem that doesn't exist. That looks and quacks like a scam to me

Of course it's a scam! It's also completely and totally unrelated to AV companies. This is social engineering used to spread Windows malware.

It's also what Norton does. They advertise, telling Mac users that they need virus protection, and then charge them to protect them against a threat that doesn't exist.

What is your definition of a scam unless it is misrepresenting your product?

I never said anything about misrepresenting a product. I said it's misrepresentation to call a trojan a virus. Is it a scam to do so? No.

Well, the problem is that this is the same as misrepresenting their product. They claim to protect Mac users against viruses. That simply is not true. If you really insist on trying to shoe-horn this into your definition of legitimate business practices, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Trojan removers are quite different from anti-virus scanners. Of course, you know that.

Sure, trojan removers are very different. They only target one thing and are completely useless for anything else.

Right, but since removing trojans is the only thing that you have pointed to that Mac users might need these products for, that seems germane.

I had a conversation with someone a few months ago having some strange e-mail problems. I told him that he didn't have malware, just a hacked e-mail account, but that if he wanted to make himself feel better, he could run a scan with [ClamXav| http://www.clamxav.com >. Lo and behold, what turns up but a copy of iServices, presumably installed by his teenage son! How was he to know what trojan remover to use, or even to use one at all, when an expert was telling him he didn't have malware?

Well Clam, in that instance, found a trojan, in response to an authorized user installing it. I have no problem with people running software like Clam that looks for trojans if they are not certain that users of the computer will not install them, but let's not confuse that with anti-virus software, which is snake oil.

AV software is not necessary for most people, but for those few who legitimately have symptoms of some kind of infection and who can't trust the common sense of all users of the machine, it's a life-saver. If you pick the right one, and not a known troublemaker.

Absolutely - use software that can detect and remove trojans if you feel you have one or are at risk of infection.

I can't imagine how you think my posts disguise the dangers of trojans.

Because this is the first time I've seen that you've actually mentioned them at all, much less admitted their existence. You've been extremely dismissive and condescending to anyone who dares ask something about viruses.

Right, I am extremely dismissive of anyone who claims they have a Mac virus, and take the danger of trojans very seriously. I know you know the difference, but I'm confused as to why you're pretending not to.

Kurt Lang wrote:

I didn't miss it, but I am wondering what the relevance of it is.
Right, I understand - although I don't know why you are harping on about Windows.

The relevance was your lumping all AV software as "scams". The only AV scamming software is such as those I linked to. They are not AV software at all. The only way to describe AV software that is actually a scam was to refer to the Windows malware.

OK, so we're using a bit of a different definition of 'scam' here. For me, a scam is when you tell a customer you are doing something you're not doing, or tell them they need something they don't need. You seem to think that to be a scam the company has to actually install malware. Fair enough, we'll just have to agree to differ on definitions.

So what point are you trying to make?

The point is that while real AV software like Norton have little to no use for a Mac user, they are not scams. They actually do scan for real malware. There's just almost nothing to find on a Mac. Just a few Trojans.

Ok, that that's the issue. For me, having little to no use for a Mac user, and claiming otherwise is sufficient to fall into the category of scamming. Sort of like fuel additives that don't work.

OK, so you admit that Norton is misleading customers into thinking that it is scanning for viruses that could infect them?

Not completely misleading, but they do love to refer to ancient Mac viruses (from OS 9 and earlier) that are completely neutered in OS X. Misleading enough though that they should feel shame for some of their exploitive advertising. They also call what OS X malware there is viruses when they know full well they do not fall under the classification of a virus.

"+Misleading enough though that they should feel shame for some of their exploitive advertising.+"
Yep - the root of this dispute seems to be that, for me, that's a scam, while it doesn't raise to that level for you.

Thomas A Reed wrote:

I don't know why you are harping on about Windows.

Because the fake AV scams you keep bringing up are social engineering designed to spread _Windows viruses_. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the Mac or with real AV software.

I've shown you an example of one of these for the Mac. The goal is to get users to fork over cash for a 'service' they don't need, and that doesn't work anyway. My contention is that this is one end of the spectrum that Norton is on too. They use exactly the same business model.

Thomas A Reed wrote:

This 'fake' anti-virus is every bit as effective at removing viruses from the Mac because there *are no viruses for the Mac*.

sigh Still sticking stubbornly to your insistence on a literal interpretation of the word "viruses" and no mention whatsoever about the Mac trojans that legit AV software does find and remove. By equating fake AV software and real AV software because there are no Mac viruses, you imply to those who don't already know better that those trojans don't exist, which you also admit you know is not true. And yet you tell me "I can't imagine how you think my posts disguise the dangers of trojans."

It's a very important distinction, that leads to two very different strategies for protection. If you are at risk of self-installing viruses, then you need active protection, if you are at risk of social engineering attacks then active protection won't help, and may even hurt.
The difference is very important.