Q: HDMI Handshake problems every 20 - 30 minutes - Color Inversion Issue

msjgkemp wrote:
Fantastic news about iOS 4.3 fixing the problem! Looking forward to Apple releasing the final version soon...

Thanks for fixing this, I knew I should keep faith in Apple! Once again I am not dissapointed

I'm astonished anyone can think so positively about this. The way Apple have handled this is a disgrace. Firstly, a product with a problem so obvious and widespread should never have sold in the first place. Secondly, Apple's communication on this issue has been near non-existent. Thirdly, they banned discussion of the beta release (which fixes the problem) on this forum, driving people over to avforums.com.

Disgraceful, from start to finish.

richard2832 wrote:

I'm astonished anyone can think so positively about this. The way Apple have handled this is a disgrace. Firstly, a product with a problem so obvious and widespread should never have sold in the first place. Secondly, Apple's communication on this issue has been near non-existent. Thirdly, they banned discussion of the beta release (which fixes the problem) on this forum, driving people over to avforums.com.

Disgraceful, from start to finish.

Actually, I'm impressed that the problem was solved so promptly. It doesn't seem to have been that widespread, but confined to a subset or models from a couple of manufacturers, and it is still not clear whether the problem was really on Apple's end, or whether Apple has had to work around a bug in the devices. HDCP is notoriously complex and prone to incompatibilities, and a sporadic failure is the hardest thing to diagnose and fix. I ran into a HDMI incompatibility when setting up the Roku box with my brother's system, and when I went to the Roku forum I found a thread of complaints about the same problem going back well over a year. I think the Roku box is a fine product, but clearly Roku has been unsuccessful in figuring out and fixing the problem.

tgibbs wrote:

Actually, I'm impressed that the problem was solved so promptly. It doesn't seem to have been that widespread, but confined to a subset or models from a couple of manufacturers, and it is still not clear whether the problem was really on Apple's end, or whether Apple has had to work around a bug in the devices. HDCP is notoriously complex and prone to incompatibilities, and a sporadic failure is the hardest thing to diagnose and fix. I ran into a HDMI incompatibility when setting up the Roku box with my brother's system, and when I went to the Roku forum I found a thread of complaints about the same problem going back well over a year. I think the Roku box is a fine product, but clearly Roku has been unsuccessful in figuring out and fixing the problem.

So promptly? It's been more than 4 months since this thread was started, and the problem is still not officially fixed.

Not widespread? Yours was the 781st post on this thread!

Not clear whether it was Apple's problem? Well, no I can't prove that. But consider this - Apple TV 1 had a option to select the HDMI output format. Apple TV 2 removed it, and had problems. The iOS 4.3 beta puts it back in and it works again. Draw your own conclusions.

richard2832 wrote:

Not widespread? Yours was the 781st post on this thread!

Not clear whether it was Apple's problem? Well, no I can't prove that. But consider this - Apple TV 1 had a option to select the HDMI output format. Apple TV 2 removed it, and had problems. The iOS 4.3 beta puts it back in and it works again. Draw your own conclusions.

So let's suppose for the sake of discussion that all of those 781 posts were from different people. We know that prior to Christmas, Apple had sold over a million AppleTVs. So 781 is 0.08% of Apple TVs

It is also not clear that the settings in the iOS 4.3 beta are identical to the settings in Apple TV1. Apple TV2 uses different video output hardware, and the issues addressed by the various settings in the Apple TV2 beta may be very different from those addressed by the settings for Apple TV1. There are a lot of ways that HDCP handshaking could go wrong. In principle, if all devices are following the standard correctly, there should be no need for different output settings. The fact that setting options are required suggests that Apple is trying to work around a device problem. (Although it is always a possibility that by the time of the final release, Apple will have found a way to achieve compatibility without the need for different settings--requiring users to fiddle around with obscure settings by trial and error is very much contrary to the Apple way of doing things).

tgibbs wrote:

So let's suppose for the sake of discussion that all of those 781 posts were from different people. We know that prior to Christmas, Apple had sold over a million AppleTVs. So 781 is 0.08% of Apple TVs

It is also not clear that the settings in the iOS 4.3 beta are identical to the settings in Apple TV1. Apple TV2 uses different video output hardware, and the issues addressed by the various settings in the Apple TV2 beta may be very different from those addressed by the settings for Apple TV1. There are a lot of ways that HDCP handshaking could go wrong. In principle, if all devices are following the standard correctly, there should be no need for different output settings. The fact that setting options are required suggests that Apple is trying to work around a device problem. (Although it is always a possibility that by the time of the final release, Apple will have found a way to achieve compatibility without the need for different settings--requiring users to fiddle around with obscure settings by trial and error is very much contrary to the Apple way of doing things).

OK, OK, so you're happy. That's your right. I'm just saying that I'm not, and I suspect that many other people here are not either.

I agree with richard2832, so there has "only" been 781 or so posts here but I am sure more people have had problems. Apple's customer service on this issue has been crap to say the least.
You talk about other products this is an apple forum!
Apple TV2 should do what it says on the box, and on the box it does not say its incompatible with some TV's weather its their (Apple's) problem or not, it should say that on the box!
I sent mine back, maybe I'll buy another when the new software version is available for all.

Well, I suppose they could add a disclaimer that reads, "Not guaranteed to be compatible with TVs that are not working properly."

Even if two or three times the number of people who have complained here are having the problem, that would still be a very small proportion of purchasers. The very fact that Apple has sold so many, and that Netflix reported it to be one of their fastest growing platforms, is a good clue that it is working fine for most people.

Unfortunately HDCP compatibility problems have been with us ever since this baroquely complicated protection "standard" was forced on electronics manufacturers by content producers. Sometimes, they never seem to be fully resolved. For another example, here is what Monoprice (another company with a deserved reputation for making very good products) says about their HDMI switchers:

"The problem with HDMI switchers is there is no one switch that is compatible with every device out there. In fact, even with the same brands, one model of DVD player may work with a particular switch but a different model will not. Also, compatibility is not specific to a single device. Instead it's a 3 way relationship between the source, the switch and the display. So, a particular dvd may work through a particular switch to a certain TV, but not to another TV, but that TV may work through the switch with another DVD player. Given that, you end up with infinite number of possible combinations so it's impossible to know based on brands what devices with work with a particular switch and what won't"

@tgibbs

Wait a minute now you clearly say that its the TV's (Sony & Philips etc) problem and not Apple's, you can't say that so please edit your post or have it removed and stick with the subject of this thread!......or maybe you are a mole and work for Apple!

Message was edited by: Millriver

Millriver wrote:
@tgibbs

Wait a minute now you clearly say that its the TV's (Sony & Philips etc) problem and not Apple's, you can't say that so please edit your post or have it removed and stick with the subject of this thread!......or maybe you are a mole and work for Apple!

No, I made no assertion either way. I was responding to your own statement, "weather its their (Apple's) problem +or not,+ it should say that on the box!"

No you said, "I suppose they could add a disclaimer that reads, "Not guaranteed to be compatible *with TVs that are not working properly.*"

Just imagine if Sony sold Bluray players that did not work with all TV's!!

Message was edited by: Millriver

As I said, HDMI problems are pretty ubiquitous. If you google a bit, it is not hard to find people complaining about similar problems with Sony BluRay players.

You actually said "*Not guaranteed to be compatible with TVs that are not working properly."* which implies its the TV's problem. look I agree its an issue with the hdmi handshake, which is what this thread is about, and if Apple wants to keep people happy they need to fix the problem which it looks like they have, I guess because they fixed it they accept that it was their problem!
You don't seem to.

Ha ha ha. I'm just watching this thread now to see how long it is before @tgibbs tells us all that we're just holding it wrongly....

Much better (and more entertaining) to see the question being discussed: "Are they fixing it fast enough?" as opposed to the previous "is this ever going to be fixed?"

Signed, happy beta user

Millriver said:

"I guess because they fixed it they accept that it was their problem!"

That doesn't necessarily stand. It is in Apples interest to ensure their product is compatible with as many TV's as possible, regardless of who's fault the incompatibility is.