10 Replies Latest reply: Nov 8, 2010 1:17 PM by Wm J Heart
Wm J Heart Level 1 (10 points)

I'm setting up an orchestral template and (as advised) am interested in programming "early reflection" Space Designer IR's for Section auxillary channels (i.e. Strings, Brass, etc.) in order to enhance instrument 'placement'; and a reverb 'tail' on a subsequent aux - (or master out)- to put everything in the 'same room'.

But I'm not highly experienced with customizing Sound Designer IR's - and reading the manual hasn't helped much in this case.

I'm not finding much via 'searches' here, on the Web or on the Logic Pro Help site.

Can anyone advise & or point me to useful tutorials on the topic?

Thanks, Wm

iMac G5 Core 2 duo / 3.06 GHz, Mac OS X (10.6.4), Logic Pro Studio, MOTU 828, Kurzweil... iLife '06
  • Wm J Heart Level 1 (10 points)
    Still struggling with this issue...

    Any advice appreciated,
  • Ed Egned Level 1 (50 points)
    Where is your problem? There is a lot of IR from real places, just chose what you vant !
  • chorleyman Level 4 (1,420 points)
    Shouldn't that read 'Vot you vant!' in a fake German accent (by Brits in general, who have no idea about other languages) he he....

    Well, anyway, there are plenty of IRs out there, as you say.
  • Miles Fender Level 3 (780 points)
    You don't say specifically what your issues are, so I'll hazard a guess that you're experiencing one of the shortcomings of IR-based reverbs: they aren't really customizable.

    Because they are based on the actual acoustic response of a specific space, tweaking them is generally going to give you an unnatural sounding reverb. This is why there is still a market for algorithm-based reverbs, whether hardware units like Lexicon (I use a Lexicon PCM96) or Bricasti, or plugins.

    If you can't find the sound you want with an IR (either one of the Logic presets or a downloadable third party IR) you might want to demo something else and see if that works out better; an algorithm-based reverb is infinitely tweakable. Maybe try Breverb, or the new Softube TSAR-1.
  • Wm J Heart Level 1 (10 points)
    It may be slightly esoteric...

    I've heard that to place orchestral instruments convincingly in an imagined concert hall sound field, it is advisable to isolate individual instruments' early reflections/predelay signal from the reverb 'tail' via separate aux channels. (Ultimately these are mixed with a dry signal via the master out & maybe a slight setting of overall reverb on another bus as well.)

    But I can find very little to guide me through the actual settings needed to accomplish this. Trial & error has not yet been fruitful in this case.

  • christianobermaier Level 3 (775 points)
    I don't know your background concerning creation of orchestral music with a computer, but I'd suggest that the majority of work in trying to get convincing results lies in composing the right things for your library, which ties in with using the libraries that give you the articulations you need, and sophisticated control of articulation and phrasing.
    If you got that down, even a good but basic overall reverb might do. But if your five note bassoon motif cries "Fake!" as loud as a train horn, no reflection, early or late, will save you.

  • seeren Level 4 (3,435 points)
    Maybe you want it to sound like a bunch of fake people in a real room?
    A place to start might be like this:

    For this starter kit just use a couple SpaceDesigners with the same preset.
    The instruments that are real close to you would get more pre-delay. As much as you can dial in without sounding weird/slap-backy. So those would all go to aux(1) with that on it.
    Next away dial the predelay a bit shorter on aux(2).
    Further yet you would dial in even shorter predelay on aux(3).

    The idea is that it takes longer for the near instruments to travel to the walls and back. That's what predelay is for, you just don't want to separate it so much that it sounds like a short echo instead of reverb - different attack characteristics will require different settings. Farther away (towards the back of the room) the direct sound arrives closer to the same time as the reflections - so less pre-delay.

    I'm sure even more realism is possible by combining short early reflection type of settings along with rooms by using more auxs, or putting the early refs on the auxes and sending those to the rooms, but this may help you visualize how to start applying things and experimenting.
  • edva Level 1 (15 points)
    Instantiate a nice hall, and edit it by moving the start time back a bit. There's your long tail without ER's.
    Then, using another instance the same program, edit it to make sure you are getting all the ER's, and shorten or damp the decay to eliminate the tail.
    I do something similar to this, but even more involved, using these techniques and also different pre-delay, EQ, editing the ER's, and panning, to try to achieve more lifelike positioning of sources in the reverberant space. Good luck, have fun.
  • Wm J Heart Level 1 (10 points)
    ...all 'a given' Christian; thanks for the input.
  • Wm J Heart Level 1 (10 points)
    Thanks edva & seeren,

    Seeren - the 'near, mid & far' pre-delay settings you describe are like what I've read this week in Mike Novy's book "The Composer's Approach" vol. 1 (about room acoustics, virtual instrument placement, etc..
    I'm setting this up now...

    edva - Your instructions verify that I've been figuring this -(my essential question) out & that my results are beginning to dial in for a reason. I'll definitely be utilizing the isolated tail & ER reverb(s) you describe - & yes, 'a few other tricks' in buliding an improved template.

    Thanks for your input!