1369 Views 13 Replies Latest reply: Mar 31, 2006 6:55 PM by Mike in Nor Cal
I could be wrong but I've always been under the impression the Radeon 9700 only works in MDD PowerMacs. As far as I'm aware a retail version was never produced, just an OEM version which was available with these machines. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the AGP slot was modified to provide more power to drive the graphics card. Perhaps someone else can provide more concrete information though.
Rodney is correct, the MDD had an up-rated AGP slot because the 9700 requires more wattage. Other G4's will get a black/blue screen because of the lower voltage available. Even the new ATI 9600 Mac/PC card can have this issue with DA and QS Mac's. Note: the PC version requires an outside power supply because of this.
Your best bet is an ATI 9800. It does require and aux. power supply, you just 'T' off and existing 12v inside the computer - I have 2 of them running. One is a flashed PC card (yoyomarv@Ebay) and the other is an OEM Mac version, both work perfectly. It is the most powerful video card available for a G4.
I've seen conflicting reports of OEM ATI Radeon 9700 (ADC/DVI) cards working in Power Mac G4 QuickSilver systems. I'll be getting my hands on such a card in the next week or so, for use with my DP 1.0 GHz QuickSilver 2002 system. There are some slight differences between the MLBs for QuickSilver, and QuickSilver 2002, systems, and so I remain hopeful that this card may fit the bill.
What would be most helpful would be for someone to post the amount of power (exact numbers) made available through the AGP slot on both MLB versions--I'll be able to get numbers for the amount of power needed by this version of the card when I actually have the card in hand, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer to this question, once and for all.
Anyone willing to lend a hand for benchmarking, Q&A, etc., feel free to add on to this thread.
Hi again, All,
I've gathered some additional information regarding the QuickSilver power supply, as opposed to the QuickSilver 2002 power supply. I have one of each system currently in hand—I can verify that an original QuickSilver has a power supply rated at 344 Watts, while a QuickSilver 2002 has a power supply rated at 355 Watts.
Details and snapshots of the labels as follows:
original QuickSilver power supply
Wattage: 344 W maximum
Manufacturer part number: API1PC12
Apple part number: 661-2514 (found via Google search; not printed on the label itself)
QuickSilver 2002 power supply
Manufacturer: Delta Electronics
Wattage: 355 W maximum
Manufacturer part number: DPS 340AB A Rev: 02
Apple part number: 614-0158 (apparently, not a standard 661- part number)
Looking at the two power supplies as they're installed, they appear to be identical in form factor and I see no reason why a 355 Watt model could not be installed into an original QuickSilver (or even in the Digital Audio and/or Gigabit Ethernet models, with the proper mounting bracket). As others have noted the MDD power supply appears to be rated at 360 Watts, this might mean there is a single, drop-in solution for those wanting to take a stab at running the OEM Radeon 9700 in either QuickSilver model, and without having to modify your case in any way in order to cram a MDD power supply in there!
DISCLAIMER: Apple has been known to place differing (but compatible) parts into systems based on availability at the time of manufacture. While I have one of each model in hand and so have provided a photo of each, do NOT purchase a whole system unit without actually checking the power supply label to make sure it does, in fact, have the proper power supply you seek! And even so, we're still testing here and so any information I can provide should be considered anecdotal at best, and not "definitive".
I'll be in touch as soon as the OEM Radeon 9700 reaches me within the next week or so, and will provide further information at that time. Here's hoping!
Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver 2002), 20" Cinema Display Mac OS X (10.4.4) Dual 1.0 GHz G4/1.5 GB RAM/2x160 GB HD/SuperDrive/GeForce4 MX
Well, rats—the card did not work even on the hardware described here, got as far as the blue screen but could never get the login panel to load.
Sigh. Thanks for following along, and if anyone has succeeded in getting the Radeon 9700 OEM version to work in any pre-MDD system, please reply back to this thread?
Best wishes to all,
Yeah, I tried this a year ago too.
No joy in my QS.
Note that the 9700 OEM has a lone pin on AGP connector that doesn't exist on any other OEM card.
And it isn't so much about TOTAL PSU ability as amount of 3.3, 5, and 12V current available.
A Safe boot doesn't load the ATI drivers which kick in the power needs of card.
I seriously doubt you will EVER see a 9700 OEM work in anything but a MDD.
There are flashed options available, Yoyomarv is your best bet if he has 9700s. But as you noted, not only is there no ADC port, but there is only one DVI port.
So the ONLY ADC card to support COre Image is not an option for anyone without a MDD.
It IS possible to mod an ADC 9600 so that ADC is powered, but again these don't work in all QS or DA machines.
Thanks for the details so far, they're appreciated.
You seem to be knowledgeable about the situation, so if you'll indulge me a bit, I'd ask the following questions. I'm asking from the context of gathering as much info as I can, as opposed to anything I might be willing to do in my own right:
1. Can you be as descriptive as possible regarding any power aspects applicable to using this card with a QuickSilver logic board? I'm interested in specific voltages for specific pins, both on the card itself, as well as what is supplied via the AGP and ADC ports on both the MDD and QuickSilver logic boards; a technical description of the unique pin configuration of the 9700; and any related details that may be helpful.
2. If the card is able to function in a QuickSilver logic board until the point at which Aqua would normally load, the presumption is that a driver issue may be more important than raw AC power considerations. I'm presuming the driver that is attempting to load is /System/Library/Extensions/ATIRadeon9700.kext—are any other drivers involved in this process (IOKit, etc.)? Would it be possible to modify this kext to allow it to function?
I'm asking because I've come across a lot of people that have been following this as an interesting technical challenge—it's the only ADC, Core Image-capable card that could potentially function (unmodified) in a QuickSilver or earlier G4. Add to that the relative scarcity of the cards themselves, and it's a geek challenge du jour. I've seen some of the mods you've mentioned separately (and thanks much for covering them!), but this is a question some of us are determined to have as full an understanding of as possible.
Thanks for any assistance you can offer,
Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver 2002), 20" Cinema Display (ADC) Mac OS X (10.4.5) Dual 1.0 GHz G4/1.5 GB RAM/2x160 GB HD/SuperDrive/GeForce4 MX/PCI USB 2.0&FW400
1. Here's the big problem, Apple had absolutely NO REASON to follow the AGP spec on their boards. And as they have not (that I know of) ever been kind enough to provide a pin-out or schematic, they are the only ones to know the answers to these questions you pose. If you do a search for "AGP PIn OUT" you will likely find a page from Interface Bus or something like that. They have tables showing the AGP 1.0 and 2.0 spec. APple re-assigned several of those pins to do their ADC magic. We know for sure that A3 & A11 got re-assigned.
You will also note that a "3.3V Aux" pin was assigned to the key area that APple has used, whether they chose to run 3.3V there, I know not. If someone with a MDD & a 9700 would care to check voltage on that pin, we could gain some insight. For all we know, that pin is a "Is this a MDD?" test pin.
If you go to CUbeowner.com, a guy named EBuc claims to have gotten one of these running in a Cube.
And if you go to STrangedogs.com and look in the "6800 & MDD issue" thread, there are pix of that spare pin.
But I think you are missing my point that the drivers are not likely to be the problem.
If you have an OEM 9700, you could try a simple test to isolate this. Re-flash the card with a 9800 ROM that has the device id hexed to match card (4e48 modded to 4e44) and lower the clocks.
It is likely there will be screen corruption due to different RAM timings but if it makes it through to the desktop, you will know that the drivers or ROM for 9700 have a MDD check.
Consider however that the 9700 Pro from a PC can be flashed with Mac 9700 ROM and work fine in a Quicksilver. I think the test I mentioned above would be your next step as it would show whether there is a specific card/ROM/driver switch to disallow booting in a non MDD.
Well, I've got a voltmeter and am willing to test pins on both the socket itself, and pins on the card, if you can guide me as to what information to gather. However, I'm quite reluctant to flash the card as a) it's the only one I have, and b) I've not done that type of thing before and so would be hesitant to do such a thing, on such a rare card, without experience doing such things before. I don't have access to a 9700 PC card, and so that option is not available to me either.
But of course, having said that: I'm ready and willing if you are! :-D