Wolsky vs others on the benefit of using iMovie '06 during tape transfer

"There is no difference between capturing DV tape in iMovie 06 or iMovie 11." (Wolsky)

I just noticed something: What does Wolsky mean by "DV tape"? In my case, the tapes were analog 8 mm (Video8), which after transfer to my computer (using iMovie '09) became DV files (files with a .dv ending). But there were no DV tapes involved.

I gather there is a form of video tape called Digital Video (DV) and there is a form of video computer file called a Digital Video (DV) file. Are the names only coincidentally the same, other than the fact that they are both digital and both video? And does Wolsky's talk of "capture DV tape" mean that it doesn't apply to other kinds of tape or medium?

"There is no difference between capturing DV tape in iMovie 06 or iMovie 11." (Wolsky)

I just noticed something: What does Wolsky mean by "DV tape"? In my case, the tapes were analog 8 mm (Video8), which after transfer to my computer (using iMovie '09) became DV files (files with a .dv ending). But there were no DV tapes involved. (Bullen)

DV tape or DV converter is the same. It's DV whether it's come from a tape or come from analog converter through a box that is essentially a camera without a lens on the front. (Wolsky)

I don't understand this. As far as I know there was no converter box involved in the capturing of what was on my analog 8 mm video tapes. I used an 8 mm VCR, a Firewire cable, a computer, and iMovie '09.

But let me ask if you think this is true: "There is no difference between capturing (digital or analog) tape as .dv files using iMovie '06 or iMovie '11." In other words, that as far as the process of importing video content from tape to computer goes, what you get at the end is the same using iMovie '11 as it would be using iMovie '06. And this includes when the tapes you are starting with are 8 mm analog (sometimes called Video8). And you would get the same results using iMovie '09 too. (I add that since I only bought iMovie '11 after making my transfers.)

For me this not an academic question. If it is true that iMovie '06 produces a superior image, then there is a strong reason for me to spend countless hours retransferring all my old tapes, which I only recently transferred using iMovie '09. In addition, I would probably have to spend $500 to buy an 8mm VCR. I had only temporary access to one before.

By the way, is "importing" the right word here.

Tom,
First, my assumption is that (a) you know what you are talking about (b) whatever you are saying, it is true. I am also very grateful for the help you have provided.

If you're using a deck which will output your Video8 media in DV format it's DV.

If by this you mean that if one uses a deck that outputs one's Video8 media in DV format it (the output) will be in the DV format, then it is tautological--and hence question begging. Still, I get the implicit point, which you proceed immediately to make below: the empirical (non-tautological) claim that the conversion from analog to digital takes place inside the VCR I used and that the VCR's output is in the form of something called DV.

And it's coming off tape, even if it is analog tape. Your deck is digitizing it into DV. Your deck is acting as a converter.

This is what was news to me. One reason it did not occur to me is that I could have done--I thought--the same thing using my camcorder (if my camcorder was still working). And I didn't think that my camcorder had something in it that will convert analog signals into digital. No one was expecting to transfer their tapes onto computers in 1987, when I bought my camcorder. BUT come to think of it, if I had used my camcorder, I think I would have had to buy some little extra device to do the converting to digital. I think the Firewire cable attaches to this little thing and it attaches to the computer. Or something like that. If so, the VCR has something in it that the camcorder does not. I used the only VCR that is commercially available, The Sony Digital 8mm Video Walkman GV-D200 (now apparently called Digital8 Portable Video Recorder, http://tinyurl.com/25yeq2p). I didn't realize that VCRs can convert analog signals to digital.

You cannot edit analog video inside a computer. It has to be digitized. That's what your deck is doing.

There's no reason in principle that whatever does the converting to digital couldn't be located in the computer. I sort of thought that was what the software did. But my understanding of these things limited.

I don't see what the problem is. I don't see where the confusion is. Once it's in your computer your media is DV. It's coming out of the box as DV. That's what it is. It's DV. Simple.

My confusion is primarily caused by two things (a) insufficient background knowledge and (b) my limited intelligence. More particularly, my confusion comes from the fact that I did not know that what came out of my VCR was already in the DV form and from the fact that you spoke of DV tape when I, in fact, had no tape that was DV. Things are, of course, simpler when you understand them.

Also, I took the DV format to be one among many digital formats. I had no reason to think that VCRs not only can convert signals from analog to digital, but that they happen to do in the particular format called DV (which I am taking to cover any file that ends in .dv).

I've said what I'm going to say about iMovie 6 and 11. I have nothing more to say on that.

I won't hold it against you if you violate this announcement. After all, you might think of something new.

It appears that those who advocate for iMovie '06 believe that iMovie does something in the "importing" process that results in a .dv file that is superior to the .dv file you get when you import using iMovie '11. But I would like to hear from them whether they also accept this characterization by you: "The difference is in the project. I can't speak to which will give better output for DVD. Those more experienced with iMovie than I say the older version is better, and I have no reason to doubt them."

They apparently don't believe that the difference is only in the project. But do they believe that the difference is additionally in the project? And do they also believe that regardless of what was used to import from video tapes, iMovie '06 generates a superior output to DVD? So, if I were not going to retransfer and re-import all my tapes, would my DVDs still be better if I made them using iMovie '06?

Again, thank you for you patience and help. If anyone can suggest a book that provides the sort of background knowledge I am lacking, I will happily read it. Thanks.

You cannot edit analog video inside a computer. It has to be digitized. That's what your deck is doing. (Wolsky)

There's no reason in principle that whatever does the converting to digital couldn't be located in the computer. I sort of thought that was what the software did. But my understanding of these things limited. (Bullen)

In response to myself, I guess the answer would be: it is in the very nature of software that it can only deal with digital things. So there is no way software could do this converting. Yes, it would be possible to fit a conversion box inside the housing of a computer, but it still wouldn't be part of the computer.

But this is lay speculation since I do not maintain an intimate daily connection with this realm of theoretical knowledge. I've been forced into this by the need to salvage some deteriorating analog video tapes.

Message was edited by: Paul Bullen

Thank you for detailed explanation.

You probably had the 1999 version of a Sony Digital 8, for which Sony retrofitted it to encode DV recording onto 8mm tape.

I don't think it renders what you say irrelevant, but what I used was the original analog 8 mm videotape (sometimes called Video8) in a Sony camcorder bought in 1988, specifically the Sony Auto Handycam/Video Camera Recorder Model No. CCD-V5. I think this model was first made in 1987, although the tape used had been around for longer. I made the mistake of ordering a box of Fuji tape when I bought the camera--unless deterioration only begins after you use a tape. Because I had a box of the tapes, for several years I was using tapes made in 1988. That last filming I did was in 1997, but probably with a tape that had been bought a few years before.

Message was edited by: Paul Bullen

And I used a Digital8 Portable Video Recorder (also called a Digital-8 Walkman) Model number: GV-D200 (see http://tinyurl.com/25yeq2p and http://tinyurl.com/ycfkkd3) to play the tapes into my computer. Little did I realize that this VCR digitized whatever was coming off the tapes, and so--as I now understand it--what was coming into my computer and into iMovie was in the DV format (whatever that means). Tom Wolsky says that what entered the computer and the softwares was a series of 1s and 0s (presumably not literally, although I'm not sure what it would mean to be literally a 1 or a 0). If the claims that "importing" into iMovie '06 produces a better visual quality than importing into later versions of iMovie are correct, then iMovie must be doing something to those 1s and 0s. It isn't being completely passive in the importation process.

If the claims that "importing" into iMovie '06 produces a better visual quality than importing into later versions of iMovie are correct, then iMovie must be doing something to those 1s and 0s. It isn't being completely passive in the importation process.

And by "doing something to those 1s and 0s" I don't mean bending them so they becomes 2s or 3s or whatever, but deleting some of them, adding some 1s or 0s, or rearranging them. On the level of physics, what exactly does it mean to say there are only 1s and 0s? And isn't the dichotomy between analog and digital something of a convenient myth. I seem to recall a lecture by Lessig or someone that made digital seem less black (1) and white (0).

Apparently though, and through all my trials, iMovie 11 DOES INDEED degrade imported footage including DV either through capture from camera or import from a pristine DV file.

Does this apply to iMovie '09 too? That's what I used when I transferred my tapes to the computer via the Walkman Digital 8 VCR. If it does, then it suggests I need to get my hands on an 8 mm VCR again and redo the 30 hours of work (not to mention redoing all the editing I have done of the earlier transfers). Unfortunately, I don't own the Walkman Digital 8 VCR, so I would have to buy one for about $500. But from what you are saying, it sounds like I wouldn't need to buy iMovie '06. I could just use the Vidi freeware.

Message was edited by: Paul Bullen