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User profile for user: osxdude
osxdude Author
User level: Level 1
82 points

5.1 sound cards for Mac?

I've been searching around and I've seen mixed reports of different sound cards working or not working for Mac. I'm aiming for the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 card (SB1090). (Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-SB1090-Blaster-Surround/dp/B0017QQQAE ) The only issue is that there is no volume control which is actually not an issue since my 5.1 surround receiver has one of those. I've seen nothing about the actual 5.1 working.

I've also heard about a Zalman 5.1 card (Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Zalman-ZM-RSSC-External-Sound-Card/dp/B0001OZ2K8 ) that I've read reports of fully working; 5.1 and all.

I'd like a collective opinion, and suggestions of which card I should buy. Thanks in advance.

Message was edited by: osxdude

Laptop: IBM ThinkPad R40 - Desktop: Custom - Mac mini 2nd generation C2D, Mac OS X (10.6.5), iPod touch 1G 8GB, iPhone 3G 8GB, iPad WiFi 16GB

Posted on Dec 23, 2010 1:39 PM

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10 replies
User profile for user: Bob Lang1
Bob Lang1
User level: Level 5
4,090 points

Feb 15, 2011 2:41 PM in response to osxdude

Hi

From personal experience, the Hercules Game Surround Muse XL Pocket LT3 works in true 5.1 mode with my Macbook. It's also most affordable.

On some sites, you'll see a reference to this card only working in stereo. This is not completely correct. What it means is that on Windows it can take a stereo signal and produce pseudo 5.1 channel sound, whereas on Macs it can only produce 2 channel stereo from a stereo source. However, when given a true 5.1 source it will send 5.1 audio to all 6 speakers.

If you want to watch DVDs with Dolby Surround then you can use the Hercules, provided you download the free third party VLC video player. For some reason, Apple's built in player will only render Dolby surround into stereo.

Bob
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User profile for user: Bob Lang1
Bob Lang1
User level: Level 5
4,090 points

Feb 24, 2011 2:39 PM in response to Jeffrey Lee

Hi

Jeffrey Lee wrote:
First, since you are looking for a "card" I can only assume that you have a MacPro, as that is the only computer that will allow you to install a "card".

The term "sound card" is often used for external USB audio wotsits, even though these aren't "cards" in the strict sense of the word.

Second, why not just take advantage of your MacPro's optical output and send that to your receiver to decode and amplify your 5.1 audio?


Last time I checked, the optical output wouldn't allow true 5.1 audio. It could be used it to play Dolby Surround DVDs (which have a restricted bandwidth), but it wouldn't allow applications and games to use the 5.1 speaker system in a true surround sound mode.

Bob
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User profile for user: Bob Lang1
Bob Lang1
User level: Level 5
4,090 points

Feb 25, 2011 1:08 AM in response to Jeffrey Lee

Hi Jeffrey

Jeffrey Lee wrote:
The optical outs on my MacPro and MacbookPro both support AC3 5.1 out into a receiver for decoding..


This is a very confusing area, and Apple's specs for their machines are not very clear. A few years ago I was caught out when I bought a 5.1 home theatre system for my MacBook, expecting it to provide full 5.1 audio output - it didn't! It certainly allowed me to play AC3, Dolby Prologic (etc) DVDs and get the full surround sound theatre experience, but when I tried to write an application to generate 5.1 programmatically (using either the Core Audio 5.1 3-D Surround Sound Mixer, or the Core Audio Multichannel Matrix Mixer) then it didn't work. Most disappointing. When I bought a USB 5.1 card then the problem was solved, but it wouldn't plug into the home theatre system so I had to buy another compatible 5.1 speaker system, and I lost money selling the home theatre system secondhand.

The technicalities of why the optical link didn't provide full 5.1 audio were to do with bandwidth. The optical link on my old MacBook provided little more than 2 high quality audio channels, and the various Dolby Digital/AC3/etc audio systems compressed 5.1 audio into these two channels, but at the price of compromising on audio quality on some channels. A true 5.1 audio system should provide the same high quality audio on ALL channels.

Unless the apps and the games are built with 5.1 ac3 audio, anything else would be some kind of synthesized 5.1 audio, which most likely the receiver could easily produce.


At that time, Macs did NOT come with appropriate AC3 codecs which could take arbitrary 5.1 audio and mix it down into a compressed data stream for output to the optical link. I speculate that it costs money to licence them, and maybe they don't work in real time. Of course, things are always changing and the world moves on, so it's possible that the situation is different on a modern Mac with a modern home theatre system.

AFAIK, the only way to tell if you have a true 5.1 system is to plug the sound system/card/whatever into the computer, run Utilities/Audio Midi Setup, select the card (if you can), go to Configure Speakers, then Multichannel and check if you can see all 6 speakers. If you can see all 6, then a nice confirmation is to click on each speaker individually, and you should hear a short burst of sound from that speaker. If, and ONLY if, you can do this with an audio system will it be fully 5.1 compliant.

This is a complex area (which I admit I only partially understand!) and it's really easy to spend a couple of hundred bucks on a solution which doesn't suit your needs! Unfortunately, being able to play a DVD with Dolby Surround is not a full test of the 5.1 capabilities of an audio system. The only true test is to see if it appears with 6 speakers in Audio Midi Setup.

Bob
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User profile for user: Jeffrey Lee
Jeffrey Lee
User level: Level 4
2,558 points

Feb 25, 2011 9:08 AM in response to Bob Lang1

Hey Bob

You are right... Apple's foray into multi-channel audio is a mixed bag.

AC3 is what Dolby is(and probably always will be) for 5.1 audio on DVD's. This is a compressed matrix audio stream, and it is not full bandwidth on any of the 6 channels.

I own a M-Audio FW410, which does have 10 separate audio outputs, but the only way to make use of those is with an application that specifically allows that to happen. In my case, Pro-Tools can see and make use of the different channels... perhaps a stereo pair for the control room, and a stereo pair for headphone monitor mixes. I also have a DJ program which allows for a stereo pair for the main speakers, a stereo pair for headphones, and a stereo pair for the DJ booth speakers. In all cases, these are full bandwidth channels, nothing is compressed, and all handled specifically by an application designed to use multi channel outputs. But there is no way for me to use those while playing back DVD's on my Mac, as there is no decoder on board, which is the first thing that has to happen to get 6 discrete audio channels out of an AC3 stream. The DVD app just can't do it.

I'm not a gamer, never have been so I'm skating on less than thin ice here, but there are only three options as I see it for games.

The first is the audio is only in stereo. In this case, sending it via analog or digital to a receiver with Dolby Pro-Logic would give you 'fake' 5.1 surround.

The second is that the audio is an AC3 stream, in which case, sending it out of the optical outs to a receiver would properly decode it into 6 separate audio channels

The third is, like the audio programs I mentioned above, the game has the ability to assign certain channels to certain outputs in any combination from stereo to 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or more channels. As I said, I'm not a gamer, so have no idea of what the options are, but I'm guessing the last option is the least likely.

NEITHER of the OP's device suggestions have anywhere near 6 discrete audio out's, so at best passing a digital signal to a receiver is the only thing he can do with those choices. My guess is most PC's don't have any kind of built in digital audio output, so for those kinds of computers, either of his choices would make sense. But since most modern Macs have a digital output to begin with, I stand by my original post.




The Mac's multi-channel ability is compounded by Blu-Ray, who's HD audio streams can be multi-channel un-compressed, full bandwidth audio. The only way to access that audio directly from a BluRay disc is from discrete audio outputs on a Blu-Ray player, or thru an HDMI cable to a receiver who can handle that kind of audio stream.

I've ripped a few BluRay discs to my hard drive, but with the sad shape of HD playback on Macs, I'm mostly limited to listening to the AC3 streams, decoded by my receiver. +(Presumably, the newest generation of Macs allow for HDMI outputs, including uncompressed multi channel audio)+. I have had a limited amount of success using VLC for playback, and assigning the individual, uncompressed audio tracks to different outputs on my FW410, but haven't invested in the cabling necessary to hook that up to the discrete inputs on my receiver(and probably never will), but at least it SEEMS possible.
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User profile for user: Bob Lang1
Bob Lang1
User level: Level 5
4,090 points

Feb 25, 2011 10:05 AM in response to Jeffrey Lee

Hi Jeffrey

Jeffrey Lee wrote:
Hey Bob

You are right... Apple's foray into multi-channel audio is a mixed bag.


I have just today raised a bug request asking for Apple to produce a Tech Note (or whatever) to explain the situation. If they do this (and do it right!) then this might act as a definitive source.

AC3 is what Dolby is(and probably always will be) for 5.1 audio on DVD's. This is a compressed matrix audio stream, and it is not full bandwidth on any of the 6 channels.


Yes, but it's changing all the time. I see there's now an uncompressed multichannel version called TrueHD.

I own a M-Audio FW410, which does have 10 separate audio outputs, but the only way to make use of those is with an application that specifically allows that to happen. In my case, Pro-Tools can see and make use of the different channels... perhaps a stereo pair for the control room, and a stereo pair for headphone monitor mixes. I also have a DJ program which allows for a stereo pair for the main speakers, a stereo pair for headphones, and a stereo pair for the DJ booth speakers. In all cases, these are full bandwidth channels, nothing is compressed, and all handled specifically by an application designed to use multi channel outputs. But there is no way for me to use those while playing back DVD's on my Mac, as there is no decoder on board, which is the first thing that has to happen to get 6 discrete audio channels out of an AC3 stream. The DVD app just can't do it.


If you mean Apple's own DVD Player, then I think you're right. However, I have used the free VLC player with my little Hercules USB card to play DVDs in true 5.1 audio. I recall I have to use Audio Midi Setup first, but it works ok. It would really be worth your while trying this with your multichannel system. You can probably use Audio Midi Setup to nominate 6 out of 10 speakers for the 5.1 channels.

I'm not a gamer, never have been so I'm skating on less than thin ice here, but there are only three options as I see it for games.

The first is the audio is only in stereo. In this case, sending it via analog or digital to a receiver with Dolby Pro-Logic would give you 'fake' 5.1 surround.


I'm not sure you'd even get that! I think you'll only get stereo from the front two speakers.

The second is that the audio is an AC3 stream, in which case, sending it out of the optical outs to a receiver would properly decode it into 6 separate audio channels


Yes, but that depends on the game having AC3 content. With the power of the Core Audio 3D mixer it's not the way I'd do it, but another developer might see it differently.

The third is, like the audio programs I mentioned above, the game has the ability to assign certain channels to certain outputs in any combination from stereo to 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or more channels. As I said, I'm not a gamer, so have no idea of what the options are, but I'm guessing the last option is the least likely.


For that, you'd still need a separate FireWire or USB sound card.

NEITHER of the OP's device suggestions have anywhere near 6 discrete audio out's, so at best passing a digital signal to a receiver is the only thing he can do with those choices. My guess is most PC's don't have any kind of built in digital audio output, so for those kinds of computers, either of his choices would make sense. But since most modern Macs have a digital output to begin with, I stand by my original post.


I try to avoid PCs so I'm not up to date with their current abilities.

The Mac's multi-channel ability is compounded by Blu-Ray, who's HD audio streams can be multi-channel un-compressed, full bandwidth audio. The only way to access that audio directly from a BluRay disc is from discrete audio outputs on a Blu-Ray player, or thru an HDMI cable to a receiver who can handle that kind of audio stream.


BluRay can use TrueHD on (IFRC) up to 8 channels, but I don't think it's compulsory, so there may be BluRays out there which use compressed AC3.

I've ripped a few BluRay discs to my hard drive, but with the sad shape of HD playback on Macs, I'm mostly limited to listening to the AC3 streams, decoded by my receiver. +(Presumably, the newest generation of Macs allow for HDMI outputs, including uncompressed multi channel audio)+. I have had a limited amount of success using VLC for playback, and assigning the individual, uncompressed audio tracks to different outputs on my FW410, but haven't invested in the cabling necessary to hook that up to the discrete inputs on my receiver(and probably never will), but at least it SEEMS possible.


This is why we need a definitive answer from Apple. I'll keep you posted with the progress of my bug request, but I'm not holding my breath for anything soon.

All the best

Bob
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5.1 sound cards for Mac?

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