RMS
Level 2 (160 points)

Q: WDS vs. Extend a wireless network

Can someone tell me the difference between the two options? Thanks.

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Posted on Jan 23, 2011 8:49 AM

by Bob Timmons,Solvedanswer
Bob Timmons Bob Timmons
Level 10 (105,388 points)
Wireless
A:
Welcome to the discussions, RMS!

Can someone tell me the difference between the two options?


One is very good, the other very poor.

"Extend a wireless network allows faster "n" speeds on a network with minimal bandwidth loss. It's easy to configure as well.

WDS operates on "g" wireless only, so even if you have a new Apple "n" router, you'll lose any advantage of having "n" capability on your router.

Each "remote" that you add to a WDS setup will cut the bandwidth on the entire network in half. So, if you have a main base station and remote setup in a WDS confguration, you'll have a "g" wireless network running at 1/2 speed. If you add another remote, the entire network will run at 1/4 speed.

If all of your devices are newer Apple AirPort "n" devices, you can use the "extend" setup.

If any of your devices are not "n" devices, you must use the WDS setup.

Posted on Jan 23, 2011 9:06 AM

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RMS

Q: WDS vs. Extend a wireless network

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  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 9, 2011 7:13 AM in response to Jared Andrews
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 9, 2011 7:13 AM in response to Jared Andrews

    I'm getting around 4M download speeds.

     

    What speed do you see if you connect the computer directly to one of the Ethernet ports on your main router?

     

    One more check......

     

    If you have a Mac laptop, move it close to the AirPort Express and log on to the wireless network

    Hold down the option key on your Mac while you click on the fan shaped AirPort icon at the top of the screen and look for the Transmit Rate. What number do you see?

  • by Jared Andrews,

    Jared Andrews Jared Andrews Dec 9, 2011 7:34 AM in response to RMS
    Level 1 (5 points)
    Dec 9, 2011 7:34 AM in response to RMS

    Ok I fixed it.  In the room with the ISP Router and the TC wired to it i got the following wireless performance from Macbook.

     

    ISP network 38M

    TC network 4M.

     

    So in fact the performace from the AP via powerline was the same as from the TC itself.  So something not correct between the ISP router and the TC.

     

    I did do this yesterday when I configured this but I just rebooted the ISP router and now in the same room as the TC I get 27M and off the powerline AP virtually the same.  SOmething had got messed up,

     

    THanks for the support.

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 9, 2011 7:43 AM in response to Jared Andrews
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 9, 2011 7:43 AM in response to Jared Andrews

    Looks like things are working OK now with the powerline products and wireless access points.

  • by JohnFPascar,

    JohnFPascar JohnFPascar Dec 10, 2011 6:50 PM in response to RMS
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 10, 2011 6:50 PM in response to RMS

    Does anyone know if it is even feasible to connect 24 Airport Extremes in one large building all on the same network?  They are daisy-chained by Ethernet throughout the building. 

     

    If it is, what is the best configuraton to maximize bandwidth.  Is there any significant reduction in bandwidth? 

     

    Is there a realistic maximum number of concurrent users to expect the wireless network to handle?

     

    Thank you!

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 10, 2011 7:07 PM in response to JohnFPascar
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 10, 2011 7:07 PM in response to JohnFPascar

    The real question here is whether a product designed for use in a simple home network should even be considered as a potential solution in a commercial installation. My opinion would be that it should not.

     

    You have a demanding commercial installation that will require products designed specifically for that purpose.

     

    Probably your best initial investment in this regard would be to hire a professional IT person who has a proven record in similar system designs and installations.

  • by JohnFPascar,

    JohnFPascar JohnFPascar Dec 12, 2011 9:31 AM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 12, 2011 9:31 AM in response to Bob Timmons

    Thanks for the reply Bob!

     

    I actually figured the same thing. I just stepped into the role of Tech Director for this School District and walked into major connection issues (internal/external) and felt this is probably the cause.  I needed another expert's opinion since I am not familiar with the AP Extremes and thought there maybe a configuration that would at least minimize these bottlenecks as I reviewed managed wireless solutions.

     

    Thanks again!

     

    John

  • by Lawrence Chai,

    Lawrence Chai Lawrence Chai Dec 21, 2011 1:50 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Mac OS X
    Dec 21, 2011 1:50 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    As Bob mentioned in his prior post on this thread, there is an approximately 15% penalty in speed for extending a network when using "N" devices.

     

    Is this 15% either with each extender (Airport Express) or irrespective of how many are on the network?  I plan on having the new 4th gen TC as my router and about 5 extenders (old TC, 3 Airport Expresses and a 2nd gen Airport Extreme).

  • by Lawrence Chai,

    Lawrence Chai Lawrence Chai Dec 21, 2011 1:59 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Mac OS X
    Dec 21, 2011 1:59 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    Bob,

     

    I'm going to be setting up just about the same as Jared, using a Powerline as an ethernet to connect to a remote Airport Express.

     

    I'm a computer novice so in your last step of instruction, what do you exactly mean by restting the network after you make all of these changes?

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 21, 2011 2:02 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 21, 2011 2:02 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    I'm a computer novice so in your last step of instruction, what do you exactly mean by restting the network after you make all of these changes?

    Turn everything off...order is not important

    Turn everything back on....modem first, then other devcies one at a time

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 21, 2011 2:07 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 21, 2011 2:07 PM in response to Lawrence Chai

    15% penalty in speed for extending a network when using "N" devices.

     

    Is this 15% either with each extender (Airport Express) or irrespective of how many are on the network?  I plan on having the new 4th gen TC as my router and about 5 extenders (old TC, 3 Airport Expresses and a 2nd gen Airport Extreme).

    If you are extending by connecting devices using wirelesss only, plan on losing about 50-60% of the bandwidth on the entire network, or approximately 10-15% per device...on average.

  • by Lawrence Chai,

    Lawrence Chai Lawrence Chai Dec 21, 2011 2:15 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Mac OS X
    Dec 21, 2011 2:15 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    Thanks Bob,

     

    I think I will unplug some of those Airport Expresses.

     

    I still want to use my old TC for storage and to back up only my laptop as opposed to my children's. 

     

    Do I set up the TC to join a network instead of extend a network to avoid the loss of speed penalty?

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 21, 2011 2:28 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 21, 2011 2:28 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Do I set up the TC to join a network instead of extend a network to avoid the loss of speed penalty?

    The bandwidth loss will be about the same for either "join" or "extend". I would go with "extend" to provide more wireless signal coverage.

     

    Otherwise, if you are concerned about bandwidth loss on the network, you should connect the TC to your main wireless router using an Ethernet cable. That is the only way to maintain maximum bandwidth on the network.

  • by Lawrence Chai,

    Lawrence Chai Lawrence Chai Dec 21, 2011 3:30 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Mac OS X
    Dec 21, 2011 3:30 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    Thank you very much Bob,

     

    You are a very great help.  I work during the day so cannot get to and stay on the phone with Apple for technical support, especially with new unforseen issues given my unfamiliarity with networks and computers in general requiring repeat calls.

     

    If you could help me with a few more questions tonight, I would be very grateful.

     

    1)  I will take your advice and attach my old TC to my new TC via an ethernet cable.  Would I just plug an end to either devices' ports?  Do I turn off wireless on the old TC and would I need to turn off either first before plugging the two together?  What other settings do I need to set up on the old TC and how would I access/see it from my computer?

     

    2)  In preserving bandwitdth, would using the Powerline method of  attaching another base (Airport Express or Extreme) keep things faster?  If I attach an Airport Express to a Powerline device and then enable extend a wireless network, is that going to slow things down?

     

    3) finally, a basic question on the order of steps.  In setting up the programming of the Air Port Express to use it with the Powerline device, do I program it before I attach it to the Powerline device (and then attach it) or do I attach it to the Powerline device and then program after the two are together?

     

    Thanks again,

     

    Lawrence

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Dec 21, 2011 8:39 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Level 10 (105,388 points)
    Wireless
    Dec 21, 2011 8:39 PM in response to Lawrence Chai
    Do I set up the TC to join a network instead of extend a network to avoid the loss of speed penalty?

    Connect an Ethernet cable from one of the LAN <-> ports on the new TC to the WAN port (circle of dots icon) on the old TC.

     

    Configure the old TC as follows:

     

    AirPort Utility - Manual Setup

     

    Click the Wireless tab below the icons

    Wireless Mode = Off

     

    Click he Internet icon

    Click the Internet Connection tab

    Connect Using = Ethernet

    Connection Sharing = Off (Bridge Mode)

    Update to save setings and let the TC restart

     

    Power cycle the entire network by powering everything off

    Wait a minute

    Start the modem first and let it run a minute or two

    Start the next device connected to the modem the same way

    Keep starting devices one at a time until everything is powered back up

     

    In preserving bandwitdth, would using the Powerline method of  attaching another base (Airport Express or Extreme) keep things faster

    It is not possible to say. Bandwidth is lost as the distance increases between each power line adapter. The same thing happens when you connect using wireless only. Connecting AirPort devices using Ethernet cables is the only way to maintain maximum bandwidth on the network

     

    finally, a basic question on the order of steps.  In setting up the programming of the Air Port Express to use it with the Powerline device, do I program it before I attach it to the Powerline device (and then attach it) or do I attach it to the Powerline device and then program after the two are together?

    It really makes no difference unless you suspect that you are having difficulty with the power line adapters. Then, I would program the Express close to the main router and move it to the desired location.

  • by Lawrence Chai,

    Lawrence Chai Lawrence Chai Dec 22, 2011 4:00 AM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Mac OS X
    Dec 22, 2011 4:00 AM in response to Bob Timmons

    I will do that Bob.  You saved me alot of time.

     

    I was just thinking . . .

     

    What if, after I connect the old TC to the new one, I used it as a second wireless source for a different wireless network for guests (kids that play games, download media etc.).  Would that keep things faster on the wireless network of the new TC?  If this is feasible, is it easy to do and how would you accomplish this?

     

    Also since the Powerline gobbles up some speed as my house is about 5000 sq feet (I plan on having 5 remote PL plugged in), is it possible to connect the ethernet cable to the old TC in bridged mode and use that as the Powerline "source?" My goal is just to preserve bandwidth on the new TC.

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