Prores 422LT vs regular 422

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Level 2

364 points

Prores 422LT vs regular 422

Can anyone shed some light on Prores 422LT ?

I've done several projects with Standard PR but saving the extra 30% of disc space is attractive.
There doesn't seem to be any real info out there about the specific compromises that LT might introduce vs regular 422.

I'm transferring AVCHD 17mb 1080i

Thanks

Macbook Pro 2.4, Mac OS X (10.5.6)

Posted on Feb 11, 2011 8:06 AM

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Answer 1

Top-ranking reply

dichen

Level 1

4 points

Jan 20, 2013 12:48 PM in response to Goldfish

this post has been very well answered - but - just in case anyone else is reading - the following encapsulates the differences, which as I had imagined was the data rate.

Also the AIC user with iMovie can still use FCP. Just convert using Compressor or Pavtube.

http://www.larryjordan.biz/technique-understanding-video-data-rates/

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflows/in dex.html#chapter=10%26section=2%26tasks=true

Apple ProRes 4444

The Apple ProRes 4444 codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:4:4 sources and for workflows involving alpha channels. It includes the following features:

Full-resolution, mastering-quality 4:4:4:4 RGBA color (an online-quality codec for editing and finishing 4:4:4 material, such as that originating from Sony HDCAM SR or digital cinema cameras such as RED ONE, Thomson Viper FilmStream, and Panavision Genesis cameras). The R, G, and B channels are lightly compressed, with an emphasis on being perceptually indistinguishable from the original material.
Lossless alpha channel with real-time playback
High-quality solution for storing and exchanging motion graphics and composites
For 4:4:4 sources, a data rate that is roughly 50 percent higher than the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Direct encoding of, and decoding to, RGB pixel formats
Support for any resolution, including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and other resolutions
A Gamma Correction setting in the codec’s advanced compression settings pane, which allows you to disable the 1.8 to 2.2 gamma adjustment that can occur if RGB material at 2.2 gamma is misinterpreted as 1.8. This setting is also available with the Apple ProRes 422 codec.

Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)The Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) codec offers the utmost possible quality for 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 sources (without an alpha channel) and provides the following:

Target data rate of approximately 220 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422

Apple ProRes 422The Apple ProRes 422 codec provides the following:

Target data rate of approximately 145 Mbps (1920 x 1080 at 60i)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (LT)

Apple ProRes 422 (LT)The Apple ProRes 422 (LT) codec provides the following:

Roughly 70 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422 (thus, smaller file sizes than Apple ProRes 422)
Higher quality than Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)

Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy)The Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) codec is intended for use in offline workflows and provides the following:

Roughly 30 percent of the data rate of Apple ProRes 422
High-quality offline editing at the original frame size, frame rate, and aspect ratio
High-quality edit proxy for Final Cut Server

Video Format	Store 1 Hour	Dupe	Comp	Transfer Rate
SD
DV NTSC / PAL	13 GB	No	I-frame	3.75 MB/second
DVCPRO-50	27 GB	No	I-frame	7.5 MB/second
Uncompressed 8-bit (Beta SP)	72 GB	No	I-frame	20.2 MB/second
Uncompressed 10-bit (DigiBeta)	96 GB	No	I-frame	26.7 MB/second
ProRes 422 (NTSC or PAL)	19.5 GB	No	I-frame	5.25 MB/second
ProRes 422 HQ	28.1 GB	No	I-frame	7.8 MB/second
HD
HDV (25 mbps) 60i	13 GB	No	GOP	3.75 MB/second
AVCHD (varies) *	Up to 10.8 GB	Yes	I-frame	1.5 – 3.0 MB/second
AVC-Intra (Panasonic) *	Up to 10.8 GB	Yes	I-frame	1.5 – 3.0 MB/second
AVCCAM (Sony & Pana.) *	Up to 10.8 GB	Yes	I-frame	1.5 – 3.0 MB/second
XDCAM HD (50 mbps)	28 GB	Yes	GOP	7.75 MB/second
XDCAM HD (35 mbps)	19 GB	Yes	GOP	5.2 MB/second
XDCAM EX	19 GB	Yes	GOP	5.2 MB/second
DVCPROHD	54 GB	Yes	I-frame	15 MB/second
ProRes 422 (Proxy)*	20 GB	No	I-frame	5.6 MB/second
ProRes 422 (LT)*	46 GB	No	I-frame	12.75 MB/second
ProRes 422*	66 GB	No	I-frame	18.1 MB/second
ProRes 422 (HQ)*	99 GB	No	I-frame	27.5 MB/second
ProRes 4444 (no alpha)*	148 GB	No	I-frrame	41.25 MB/second
R3D	137 GB	No	I-frame	28 or 38 MB/second
HDCAM 720p 60 fps	396 GB	No	I-frame	110 MB/second
HDCAM 1080 60 fps	834 GB	No	I-frame	237 MB/second

NOTE: All AVC video formats are converted (transcoded) to ProRes422 during ingest into Final Cut Pro. So, while the AVC source video uses GOP compression, ProRes uses I-frame compression. Also, when the AVC footage is duplicated, the ProRes data rate and file size applies to the converted video.

ProRes is a variable bit-rate encoder, so file sizes will vary depending upon format, image size, and frame rate. The HD specs for ProRes are based on shooting 1080i/60 and taken from Apple’s ProRes white paper. File sizes decrease for 720p files, or slower frame rates.

chris lachman

FCP user gone PREMIER-PRO editing with PRORES

Mac Pro 3,1 8 core

LION

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Answer 2

David S.

Level 7

20,636 points

Feb 11, 2011 8:54 AM in response to Goldfish

Like Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and Apple ProRes 422, the new Apple ProRes 422 (LT) codec supports full-width 10-bit video sequences, but at a target data rate even lower than these siblings. Apple ProRes 422 (LT) weighs in at 100 Mbps or less, depending on the particular video format. It balances incredible image quality with small file sizes, and is perfect for digital broadcast environments where storage capacity and bandwidth are often at a premium.

http://images.apple.com/finalcutstudio/docs/AppleProRes_White_Paper_July2009.pdf

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Answer 3

RedTruck

Level 4

2,145 points

Feb 12, 2011 9:06 AM in response to mishmumken

If your footage was shot in AVC or an MPEG2 codec (like HDV or XDCAM) at a bit rate of 35Mb/s or less, use ProRes LT. If your footage was shot above 35Mb/s (e.g. 5D @ 44Mb/s) then use standard ProRes 422. If your footage was shot in 2k or above, and you're downrezzing to 1080, use ProRes HQ.

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Answer 4

Goldfish Author

Level 2

364 points

Feb 12, 2011 5:40 PM in response to RedTruck

RedTruck wrote:
If your footage was shot in AVC or an MPEG2 codec (like HDV or XDCAM) at a bit rate of 35Mb/s or less, use ProRes LT. If your footage was shot above 35Mb/s (e.g. 5D @ 44Mb/s) then use standard ProRes 422. If your footage was shot in 2k or above, and you're downrezzing to 1080, use ProRes HQ.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate the advice.
g

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Answer 5

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Feb 13, 2011 9:22 AM in response to Goldfish

You can do your own A/B comparison.

Take a short clip from your original material.

Open up Compressor.

Add the clip three times

Encode the first instance with ProResHQ
Encode the second instance with ProRes422
Encode the third instance with the ProRes LT

Open up a new sequence in FCP

Import the 3 encoded clips

Then, you can put any 2 clips on the time and using the DIFFERENCE MATTE, you can see if there is any variation.

In my testing with h.264 sourced material, there was essentially no difference between LT, standard and HQ.

x

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Answer 6

Bob221b1

Level 1

18 points

Dec 17, 2012 5:55 PM in response to RedTruck

Dear RT,

I am using FCP 7.0.3, and OS X 10.8.2 (Mountai Lion). I can't get FCP to import using my Sony HD camera, so God help me- Im using iMOVIE and as such- am restricted to capturing in AIC.

1920x1080 AIC looks to be about 12-14mb/s.

I want to transcode using the best ProRes fapplicable, and it seems to me based on your post that Prores LT is the best. I imported imovie .xml into FCP, then rendered both ways for comparison.

A 10 second sampling (1920x1080 of course). of AIC exported at 125mb.

The same clip (FCP sequence changed to LT then...) exported using ProRes 422 LT came out at 113mb (12mb LESS THAN AIC).

After all that.. my questions:

1) Is ProRes 422 LT the right one to use?

2) Do you know a way of taking FCP7 and making it see a Sony HD camcorder so it will import 422, etc., rather than my iMOVIE workaround?

Thank you in advance!

~Bob

RedTruck

This helped meRe: Prores 422LT vs regular 422

Feb 12, 2011 9:06 AM (in response to mishmumken)

If your footage was shot in AVC or an MPEG2 codec (like HDV or XDCAM) at a bit rate of 35Mb/s or less, use ProRes LT. If your footage was shot above 35Mb/s (e.g. 5D @ 44Mb/s) then use standard ProRes 422. If your footage was shot in 2k or above, and you're downrezzing to 1080, use ProRes HQ.

got a lotta stuff - purdy too, ...and all the trimmins...

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Answer 7

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Feb 13, 2011 10:39 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Shane who?

I tested in a ProRes4444 timeline.

At various points along the LT clip make freeze frames.

Put the HQ or regular ProRes version in the timeline, apply the difference matte with one of the LT freeze frames as the plate. Go to that frame in the HQ or Std clip and take a look.

I'm not seeing any difference in my material. Then again, it is not red, not scarlet, not even a little pink.

x

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Answer 8

Dec 18, 2012 3:21 AM in response to D Gilmore

The difference is peak signal noise ratio (PNSR). This translates into loss of image quality when the footage is recompressed.

So, in comparing the variations of Apple ProRes, you are likely to find the Proxy codec looks as good as the HQ codec in the first generation (be it Red to ProRes, P2 to ProRes, AVCHD to ProRes); however, recompress each to the corresponding codec and then compare image quality. Then do it again and again. Proxy will show generation loss sooner than LT which will show it sooner than regular which will show it sooner than HQ.

PNSR,

Warren

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Answer 9

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Feb 14, 2011 6:31 AM in response to Goldfish

LT is 10 bit along with ProRes and HQ. I suppose there might be a difference with heavy compositing. But, it you knew you were going in that direction from the start, you might be working in 4444 as a digital intermediate.

I'll look forward to your testing results.

x

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Answer 10

mishmumken

Level 5

4,000 points

Feb 15, 2011 6:44 AM in response to Goldfish

+My comment about proxy was my attempt at humor.+

my reply was my attempt at humor ... sorry it if came over the wrong.

ProRes LT is definitely the way to go for many formats ... In the end what you want is the transition from one codec to another to be near lossless and the editing codec to be i-frame only ... if you can have 10-bit on top of that it's all for the better.

mish

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Answer 11

Goldfish Author

Level 2

364 points

Feb 11, 2011 10:42 AM in response to David S.

Thanks David,
I did see the white paper. But to me the info there is still very abstract with most of the references being mostly to file size and the number of RT streams that can be played back.
I was hoping that someone out there had done a real world A-B test and could offer advice like: "Color correction was better in 422... Fast motion suffered a little in LT... " etc.

I've done a lot of forum & web searches and most people seem to just pick one or the other and just go with it.

This project I'm starting has a deadline so I don't have time to do the A-B tests myself.
I'll just use regular 422 for now just to be on the safe side.

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Answer 12

Goldfish Author

Level 2

364 points

Feb 11, 2011 2:39 PM in response to Jim Cookman

Jim Cookman wrote:
... ProRes LT is for stuff shot on cameras costing less than $15K.

How's that?

Cool! There ya go... Apple should add that to their White Paper!
So to follow through:

Camera < 15k = PR LT
Camera < 220k = PR422
Camera < 330k = PR HQ
Camera > 330k = PR 4444

So by deduction I guess I should use Proxy.

It seems so simple now that you've pointed it out! God, I've been wasting Disk space for nothing....

🙂

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Answer 13

Goldfish Author

Level 2

364 points

Feb 12, 2011 5:38 PM in response to mishmumken

mishmumken wrote:
+So by deduction I guess I should use Proxy.+

You didn't say what camera ... could be AIC is just fine 🙂

mish

P.S. can I has AIC LT??

My comment about proxy was my attempt at humor.

I mentioned in my original post that the footage was AVCHD 17mb 1080i
I didn't mention the camera - it's the Sony MC50U

I'm not considering AIC - I understand the limitations with AIC and it was never a consideration for me.

I'm just trying to find concrete info about the difference between 422 and 422LT. Or if someone had a real-word opinion about the difference between the two.

Obviously Apple is being somewhat guarded in their white paper so I was hoping that by now some curious editor had done a side by side A-B test. But there doesn't seem to be anything like that out there on the interweb. At least with the keywords I'm using in the forums & Google.

I'm beginning to think that PR LT might really be the most efficient balance between bandwidth and quality for most projects and should have been the jumping off point for the codec in the first place. And the original 422 was probably over tweaked for the mass market from the get-go. So Apple back peddled a little.

After using 422 on several projects people might be reluctant to dial down to PR LT without really understanding what they might be sacrificing. I know I am.

Eventually I'll get around to doing my own AB tests and attempt to form my own opinion.

best

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Answer 14

Goldfish Author

Level 2

364 points

Feb 14, 2011 6:23 AM in response to Studio X

Thanks X

I appreciate your input and trust your judgement.
I'll be doing my next project using LT.

I imagine there must be some difference in the way that each version of the codec stands up to adjustments like filters, time manipulation, scaling etc.
As opposed to comparing first generation transfers.

When I have some time I'm going to do some testing too.
Or maybe just dive into a project with LT and if the results are the same as previous 422 projects I'll just carry on blissfully with LT and no longer covet the fruit from the tree of knowledge.
😉

best,
g

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Answer 15

Studio X

Level 7

27,229 points

Dec 19, 2012 8:00 AM in response to Bob221b1

>Is ProResLT the way to go?

Yes.

re the sony import issue, do a search for your camera model and FCP 7 and see what comes up. If nothing, then post the question a NEW thread in this forum.

Good luck.

x

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