Level 1

32 points

how to set indentations

Pages is driving me nuts. The menu system is obtuse with many common functions having unrecognizable names and buried deep in multiple menus.

Here is my problem. I am writing an engineering specification document. I have headers with 1.0, 2.0.... and subheadings with 1.1, 1.2.... I am not using the automatic heading system (lists), but typing the indents and numbers myself.

The problem is, I see no way to control the indentation of the lines after the first line. I want the following lines indented beyond the number in the first line. Somehow I have several sections with the indents correctly done. I don't know how. Other sections have the following lines to the left of the first line.

I have tried everything I can think of and looked through all the menus and Help and find nothing that describes how to set indentations. The margin and tab icons at the top are no help.

I would appreciate any help.

Posted on May 19, 2011 6:59 AM

47 replies

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 19, 2011 12:53 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

The smaller left margin used in the document is defined in the Document Inspector.

If we want to use a larger margin locally, we may edit the ruler applying to a specific area as I did here.

The ruler setting applied to the paragraph pointed by the cursor are displayed:

graphically in the ruler

by numerical values in the Inspector > Text > Tabs

Nothing is obscure or hidden, everything is clearly and easily available.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 19 mai 2011 21:53:44

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KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 19, 2011 1:10 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

It's really foolish.

Now that I posted the original message splitter in three parts, the 1st one appear.

It seems that my provider wasn't displaying the live thread but a cached version.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 19 mai 2011 22:10:46

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Cosman Author

Level 1

32 points

May 19, 2011 1:56 PM in response to Jerrold Green1

Jerry,

When I posted the two screen shots, I stated that the cursor did not show up in the pictures. Then I told where each cursor was. It was in different indentations. The ruler bar showed exactly the same in both cases, unless I am blind.

In the case of Koenig, he copied my discussion text and put it into Pages and showed how the indentation is supposed to work, rulers and all. His demostration is correct. Except is doesn't apply to my problem. On MY computer, apparently the styles were different underneath and the differences were invisible. The styles menus showed the same thing no matter where I clicked. His computer was not set up like mine.

I made some dedicated styles with single button hot keys, so I know exactly what is in them. They are accessible 3x faster than fiddling with multiple menus by a simple keystroke.

My comments about the lousy interface still stand. I have a quick example to illustrate what I mean. Some of the first level menus on the screen make no sense. Why are there two menus with exactly the same icon (the paragraph icon) on the left, with entirely different meanings. Front line menus are buried two or three deep. I don't remember ever using opacity, shadow, and reflection. Why are they taking up space on the main menu?

The poster boys for me are the old Word menus and the current OO.org menus. I don't care if they are "pretty" or not, I want to see then major menu items ones and go to them immediately. I also don't want any hidden gotchas, which is the origin of this discussion. I like the menu in open office the best. They didn't screw up like MS with floating ribbons that are always in the way.

Cosman Author

Level 1

32 points

May 19, 2011 1:58 PM in response to Cosman

Sorry for the typos, I have to leave in 3 mins.

May 19, 2011 2:12 PM in response to Cosman

Cosman wrote:

Jerry,

When I posted the two screen shots, I stated that the cursor did not show up in the pictures. Then I told where each cursor was. It was in different indentations. The ruler bar showed exactly the same in both cases, unless I am blind.

The ruler differences would be subtle.

We're just volunteer helpers. We don't represent Apple. We aren't special - anyone can answer questions. What we can't do is process your complaints and opinions. There's a Feedback channel for that in the Pages menu.

While we're exchanging opinions, that's a document with the signature of a rookie WP user. It really needs to be cleaned up. Use paragraph styles rather than leading off with a tab character to get an indent, etc. If you use the tools provided, the document will be much easier to manage and probably will be better behaved.

Jerry

May 19, 2011 2:35 PM in response to Cosman

Can you email me the document in question? Click my blue name to find the email address. I would be interested in seeing what is causing the problem.

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 20, 2011 12:35 AM in response to Cosman

Cosman wrote:

Let me clarify that the cursor in the top screen shot sits to the left of 2.5, and in the second shot it is to the left of 3.1.

I apologize but NO, the cursor isn't to the left of 2.5 in the screenshot Screen+shot+2011-05-19+at+12.56.47+PM.png

we don't see the cursor

In the screenshot Screen+shot+2011-05-19+at+12.57.02+PM.png it's really to the left of 3.1.

we see the cursor !

I see no reason why the cursor would be visible in a shot, not in an other one except the fact that it was not where you wrote it was !

May you send a file containing your page to my mailbox ?

Click my blue name to get my address.

I'm quite sure that it will be easy to find what change between the two paragraphs.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) vendredi 20 mai 2011 09:32:44

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 20, 2011 1:47 AM in response to Cosman

Hello

For every interested user, I rebuilt the sample page and took screenshots of the different tab settings.

There are at least seven different ones which are perfectly displayed by the app.

Seeing the differences just requires to open our eyes !

Go to my iDisk :

<http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Downoad :

how to set indentations.zip

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) vendredi 20 mai 2011 10:46:47

Please :

Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

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KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 20, 2011 3:01 AM in response to Cosman

Cosman wrote:

Jerry,

(1) When I posted the two screen shots, I stated that the cursor did not show up in the pictures. Then I told where each cursor was. It was in different indentations. The ruler bar showed exactly the same in both cases, unless I am blind.

(2) In the case of Koenig, he copied my discussion text and put it into Pages and showed how the indentation is supposed to work, rulers and all. His demostration is correct. Except is doesn't apply to my problem. On MY computer, apparently the styles were different underneath and the differences were invisible. The styles menus showed the same thing no matter where I clicked. His computer was not set up like mine.

(3) I made some dedicated styles with single button hot keys, so I know exactly what is in them. They are accessible 3x faster than fiddling with multiple menus by a simple keystroke.

(4) My comments about the lousy interface still stand. I have a quick example to illustrate what I mean. Some of the first level menus on the screen make no sense. Why are there two menus with exactly the same icon (the paragraph icon) on the left, with entirely different meanings. Front line menus are buried two or three deep. I don't remember ever using opacity, shadow, and reflection. Why are they taking up space on the main menu?

(5) The poster boys for me are the old Word menus and the current OO.org menus. I don't care if they are "pretty" or not, I want to see then major menu items ones and go to them immediately. I also don't want any hidden gotchas, which is the origin of this discussion. I like the menu in open office the best. They didn't screw up like MS with floating ribbons that are always in the way.

(1) As I already wrote, the cursor is perfectly visible in one of your screenshots so it seems that it would be useful to consult an ophthalmologist.

(2) Look at what I uploaded on my iDisk. What I got is what you got !

(3) I didn't asked you to navigate in several menus but to click buttons (the alternate scheme thru menu has built in shortcuts)

(4) Your example really tell us that you need an ophtalmo consultation.

One ¶ is in a blue circular button which opens the named_styles pane.

The other one is in a grey popup menu which give us access to a subset of the named_styles which is interesting when we have no space available for the full pane.

(5) Perfect example of someone which feel that every app must behave as the one which he is accustomed to work. Apple never defined Pages as a clone of Word and never defined it as a Word competitor. It's just an app designed for the normal beings, not for the Pro of Word Processing.

It's clearly explained in :

++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++

Apple Human Interface Guidelines:

Apply the 80 Percent Solution

During the design process, if you discover problems with your product design, you might consider applying the 80 percent solution‚ that is, designing your software to meet the needs of at least 80 percent of your users. This type of design typically favors simpler, more elegant approaches to problems.

If you try to design for the 20 percent of your target audience who are power users, your design may not be usable by the other 80 percent of users. Even though that smaller group of power users is likely to have good ideas for features, the majority of your user base may not think in the same way. Involving a broad range of users in your design process can help you find the 80 percent solution.

++-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-++

You defined at least seven combinations of tabs stops in your example so, it's not surprising that you have seven different behaviors.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) vendredi 20 mai 2011 12:01:00

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Cosman Author

Level 1

32 points

May 20, 2011 6:09 AM in response to Jerrold Green1

I understand that everyone here is a volunteer trying to help and I appreciate all the efforts that have been put in. I hope Apple is checking some of these forums for feedback on their products.

These comments led me to see that the problem was in the styles formats, which I don't normally use, except for the default one. Therefore, I would not have suspected the styles would be the problem. When I forced the text lines into a style (default), the problems cleared up, therefore the styles settings must have been the problem.

I would be glad to send the original file for examination, however, I modified it and saved it, so it is gone.

I have not made much use of styles, because I can indent and keep typing much faster than clicking on various menus. It is a personal choice. Most of my work is creating technical documents that are stuck in file drawers.

In the pictures I posted, the cursor is obviously visible in one of them and not the other. It is probably above the screen shot. I repeated the process I described many times, so the description is accurate, if not the photos. And yes, I do need to have the cataract removed from the second eye.

I use many types of software from photo processing to CAD to spreadsheets, to WP. In 1980 I wrote a spreadsheet type program, similar to Visicalc, in the "tiny" basic language of the Apple II. It, and its derivatives were the mainstay of my business for years, used by a staff of 5 office workers. In 1988 I wrote Basic software on a 386PC to calculate the rotation and distance of a bar code target with a video camera for NASA. Recently, I programmed a complex datalogger in another proprietary version of Basic on the PC, including multipage graphical data display interfaces that were a pain in the neck. I also contracted a Canadian company to create custom software program for an ophthalmological imaging device that displays the tear film of the eye. We spent months getting the user interface right, with clear, simple menu structure, that a technician could walk up to and use it with the least training. So, I know a little about software.

Whenever I approach a new piece of software, it takes me some time to understand what was in the mind of the programmer. How did he/she intend for me to do this task. Where are the tools and what is the logic in the way they are organized? After I master that, I am off and running. Most of it is hunt and peck and discovery. Occasionally I have to stop and do some indepth reading and searching for information.

All the WP software I have used over the years was pretty straightforward, or could be figured out by browsing through the menus and reading specific help sections. They all do the same thing in about the same way. From Word Star to Word Perfect to Lotus to Word, there is much commonality.

I have had more trouble with Pages than I should have. The logic of the programmers, the choice of definitions of functions, the menu structures all seem inefficient and confusing. The program itself is far more stable than Word, which is why I use it. After two or three pages of text and pictures, Word goes nuts and is so unstable that it becomes almost unusable. Pages doesn't do that.

I just wish it had a better interface.

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 20, 2011 8:43 AM in response to Cosman

The problem is that it seems that for you, a better interface means : the one which I am accustomed to use.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) vendredi 20 mai 2011 17:42:51

Please :

Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

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Cosman Author

Level 1

32 points

May 20, 2011 8:12 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

Not really. I have used may pieces of software that I was not accustomed to using. Some were easy to learn and use and some obtuse and hard to use.

When one comes along that that buries important functions under many menu levels, changes the names of functions from long term standard definitions, and has hidden consequences that are impossible to troubleshoot, I see no reason to applaud. Especially when the maker is renowned for simple intuitive software.

I am sure that someone who uses Pages every day and has a good memory will learn the idiocyncracies and consider its faults to be nonexistent. Just talk to most Windows users and they think the hassle they have to go through is normal. Mac users know it is not normal, and don't like to put up with poor interfaces.

I use a WP probably once a month. In Pages I spend a lot of time searching for functions I know are there, but are hidden. In other programs that display a large number of first level commands right on the screen, I have much less hassle than with Pages.

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 20, 2011 11:39 PM in response to Cosman

As I wrote many times, a good rule is :

use the app which fit your needs.

It's ridiculous to use a tool when we are uncomfortable with it.

Back to your indentations problems, did you looked at the set of screenshots which I uploaded in my iDisk with a sample file reproducing your example ?

There is no hidden feature at use, no deeply buried one too.

Everything is ruled true items which are accessible directly.

The differences which were boring you are perfectly visible. Sso, I'm a bit anxious for the health of your eyes !

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 21 mai 2011 08:38:13

fruhulda

Level 6

15,167 points

May 21, 2011 3:43 AM in response to KOENIG Yvan

I have had a look at the supplied document copy. There are both indents and tabs in the document and different tab stops in different paragraph. This makes it hard to get a consistent good looking text. also the marked Style is just one that Pages refers to but as it has a red triangle the text doesn't use all of the style setting.

I would delete or tab stops, first by selecting all in the document and delete the settings from the Inspector palette > T tab > Tabs. Then you use Find and replace to find all tabs in the text and Replace with nothing. It would be wise to go through each paragraph and delete the remaining tab stops.

Now use the Indent part in the Inspector palette and set you hanging indents. Do this for one paragraph. In the style drawer click on the red triangle for the style name you want to use and choose REDEFINE STYLE.

Now select all text you want to have the same settings and then DOUBLE click on the new style!

About the two paragraph icons you mentioned, the one in the toll bar shows the styles you have for that document and the paragraph icon in the format bar opens or closes the style drawer.

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,819 points

May 21, 2011 3:59 AM in response to fruhulda

Hello fruhulda

I don't understand why you are responding to me.

What you wrote seems written as answers to the OP's questions.

I was not trying to build efficient paragraph settings. I was replicating the OP's ones.

For my own use I wouldn't keep these numerous tab stops but in the present case they aren't changing the behavior.

It seems clear that the OP used neither the named styles nor the feature allowing us to copy/paste paragraph styles. Not surprising that working this way he got an awful result.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 21 mai 2011 12:59:15

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how to set indentations