russfromfairhill

Q: My wifi ipad shows the wrong physical location when connected at home.

Wifi ipad shows wrong location when connected at home. When connected at a public wifi it's correct. My first gen ipod touch shows the right location even at home. Apple suggests it is in the linksys router setup. Linksys suggested a reset to factory defaults, but that did not help. Have been through the ipad reset, the network reset without success. Any ideas?

iPad 2

Posted on May 24, 2011 8:34 PM

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Q: My wifi ipad shows the wrong physical location when connected at home.

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  • by Philly_Phan,

    Philly_Phan Philly_Phan May 26, 2011 12:51 PM in response to Chris CA
    Level 6 (13,576 points)
    iPhone
    May 26, 2011 12:51 PM in response to Chris CA

    Yeah, but no one knows how to update whatever database Apple is currently using.  It appears to be a dark secret.

  • by russfromfairhill,

    russfromfairhill russfromfairhill May 26, 2011 1:24 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 26, 2011 1:24 PM in response to russfromfairhill

    Why does the ipad report Germany (the same spot every time) as its location. This ipad has never been to Germany and neither has the router (unless it was manufactured there). If the crowd-sourced database doesn't know, wouldn't it report that "location can't be identified"?

     

    And why wouldn't the Apple people just tell me that instead of sending me to Linksys/Cisco?

     

    Without people signing on at my house with iphones, will this ever correct itself?

  • by Chris CA,

    Chris CA Chris CA May 26, 2011 1:25 PM in response to Philly_Phan
    Level 9 (79,555 points)
    iPhone
    May 26, 2011 1:25 PM in response to Philly_Phan

    Exactly.

    Mine shows my location as a half block away (my neighbor's router).

  • by Philly_Phan,

    Philly_Phan Philly_Phan May 26, 2011 1:27 PM in response to Chris CA
    Level 6 (13,576 points)
    iPhone
    May 26, 2011 1:27 PM in response to Chris CA

    C&P from my previous post:

     

    I live in house #7.  My home is never identified as the location.  Usually, house #1 (100 yards down the street) is given as the location as my neighbor there always has his router powered.  However, when my neighbor across the street in either #6 or #8 powers up his router, my location changes to whichever one is powered.  If both are powered, it picks #6.

  • by Philly_Phan,

    Philly_Phan Philly_Phan May 26, 2011 1:28 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 6 (13,576 points)
    iPhone
    May 26, 2011 1:28 PM in response to russfromfairhill

    russfromfairhill wrote:

     

    Why does the ipad report Germany (the same spot every time) as its location. This ipad has never been to Germany and neither has the router (unless it was manufactured there). If the crowd-sourced database doesn't know, wouldn't it report that "location can't be identified"?

     

    And why wouldn't the Apple people just tell me that instead of sending me to Linksys/Cisco?

     

    Without people signing on at my house with iphones, will this ever correct itself?

    I don't think that the Apple people know how it works.

  • by jsd2,

    jsd2 jsd2 May 26, 2011 1:54 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 5 (6,210 points)
    May 26, 2011 1:54 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    This ipad has never been to Germany and neither has the router.

     

    Any chance that a neighbor's router has been there?

     

    Any match between a detected nearby wi-fi hotspot and Apple's database could presumably be used to locate the iPad, not just the hotspot that you are currently connected to.

  • by russfromfairhill,

    russfromfairhill russfromfairhill May 26, 2011 4:59 PM in response to jsd2
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 26, 2011 4:59 PM in response to jsd2

    Not that I know of, but I suppose that's certainly a possibility. I'd like to believe that my ipad's location service is not dependent on my neighbor's previous home location. If the ipad is picking up this location from a neighbor's wifi, though, can I tell the ipad to ignore it, if I've never connected to it?

  • by jsd2,

    jsd2 jsd2 May 26, 2011 6:27 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 5 (6,210 points)
    May 26, 2011 6:27 PM in response to russfromfairhill

    I don't see an "Ignore this network" setting on my own first-generation iPad, just a "Forget this network" for networks that I've connected to in the past, and a general on/off switch for "Ask to Join Networks." I doubt whether changing these settings would make any difference to Location Services because they deal with connecting to networks rather than just "detecting" them,  but feel free to try changing the settings.

     

    My understanding is that every wi-fi access point broadcasts a unique identifier code (MAC address) that can be detected  just by "listening", without attempting to connect to its network. No transmitted data is intercepted. An iPhone brought into your home would presumably not have to actually connect to your router in order to report its location to Apple; it would just have to "detect" its MAC address, along with those of other nearby access points.

     

    Please keep in mind that all of the above is really just conjecture on my part. This is not a technical area that I'm really familiar with, and I also don't know definitely whether a wifi iPad's Location Services uses the iPhone crowd-sourced database.

  • by jsd2,

    jsd2 jsd2 May 27, 2011 8:03 AM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 5 (6,210 points)
    May 27, 2011 8:03 AM in response to russfromfairhill

    I just found a good public source of information about Apple's crowd-sourced database - the May 10, 2011  Senate subcommittee testimony of Guy Tribble, Apple's Vice President for Software Technology. It can be downloaded as a pdf file here:

    http://judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/11-5-10%20Tribble%20Testimony.pdf

     

    The contents include:

    To enable Apple mobile devices to respond quickly (or at all, in the case of non-GPS equipped devices or when GPS is not available, such as indoors or in basements) to a customer’s request for current location information, Apple maintains a secure database containing information regarding known locations of cell towers and Wi-Fi access points – also referred to as Wi-Fi hotspots. As described in greater detail below, Apple collects from millions of Apple devices anonymous location information for cell towers and Wi-Fi hotspots.  From this anonymous information, Apple has been able, over time, to calculate the known locations of many millions of Wi-Fi hot spots and cell towers. Because the basis for this location information is the “crowd” of Apple devices, Apple refers to this as its “crowd-sourced” database.

    .

    .

    Collections and Transmissions from Apple Mobile Devices

    Apple collects anonymous location information about Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers from millions of devices to develop and refine Apple’s database of crowd-sourced location information. The mobile devices intermittently collect information about Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers they can “see” and tag that information with the device’s current GPS coordinates, i.e. the devices “geo-tag” hotspots and towers.

    This collected Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower information is temporarily saved in a separate table in the local cache; thereafter, that data is extracted from the database, encrypted, and transmitted – anonymously – to Apple over a Wi-Fi connection every twelve hours (or later if the device does not have Wi-Fi access at that time). Apple’s servers use this information to re- calculate and update the known locations of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers stored in its crowd-sourced database. Apple cannot identify the source of this information, and Apple collects and uses this information only to develop and improve the Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower location information in Apple’s crowd-sourced database. After the device attempts to upload this information to Apple, even if the attempt fails, the information is deleted from the local cache database on the device. In versions of iOS 4.1 or later, moreover, the device will not attempt to collect or upload this anonymous information to Apple unless Location Services is on and the customer has explicitly consented to at least one application’s request to use location information.

    If you do want to try using someone's iPhone to update Apple's database of your router's location and the location of immediate neighborhood hotspots, the iPhone will need to simultaneously detect both the local wi-fi signals and also GPS satellite signals. So instead of bringing the iPhone indoors, bring it just outside your home and turn on its Maps app.  Hopefully it will be able to detect your router's wi-fi signal (and possibly your neighbors' wifi signals)  at the same time that its Maps app is providing the iPhone's location via GPS. The iPhone doesn't have to actually connect to your network. Keep it just outside your home for a while if possible.

     

    This may very well not work - your  problem might still be something wrong within your iPad itself, or the database update might fail. However if you can get access to an iPhone, it can't hurt to try.  If it does work, it  might take a few days before the database gets updated.

  • by russfromfairhill,

    russfromfairhill russfromfairhill Jun 1, 2011 11:55 AM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jun 1, 2011 11:55 AM in response to russfromfairhill

    Thought I should update everyone on this problem.

     

    I spoke to Apple again and worked through a process that eliminated the router as the source of the problem. We established a new network directly from the cable modem to the computer and I still had the same problem. Now I was faced with calling Comcast to see if they would help. I was not optimistic.

     

    I let the problem rest over the holiday weekend and when Tuesday came, I needed to run a number of errands that involved traveling to many locations around town. Thinking about the suggestions I had received from all of you, I decided to put the iPad in the car and just let it "sense" the networks it was passing through. Maybe they could convince the iPad it was not in Germany.

     

    I don't know why, I don't know if it was even connected to the issue, but when I got home and checked the iPad, it was safely home in Maryland. It's been that way for 24 hours now and I hope this is permanent.

     

    Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions. I like to believe that they resulted in the resolution of this problem. But I guess we shouldn't forget that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And I suppose that's part of the fun.

  • by JWCard,

    JWCard JWCard Oct 9, 2011 6:46 PM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Oct 9, 2011 6:46 PM in response to russfromfairhill

    I haven't seen an answer to how geolocation searches work on Apple products.  I have a Macbook Pro running Lion OS X and when I use Chrome and Firefox at home it correctly specifies my address (within a couple of houses at least).  When I use Safari 5.1 it constantly thinks I am at my work address which is 30 miles from my home.  If I go to my other office location (in Boston) it still reports the other work location.

     

    I haven't tried to see what it would report if I were in some other WiFi location yet.  I have been

    using http://browsergeolocation.com to check the location that is being reported.

     

    Again, this works fine on other browsers just not Safari.  I'll keep looking around to see how Apple supports the geolocation feature in their browser.

  • by Adamsfault,

    Adamsfault Adamsfault Oct 14, 2011 11:18 AM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Oct 14, 2011 11:18 AM in response to russfromfairhill

    I have the same probelm. I can't find any answeres to why it says that my iPad to is in China. I have a Linksys 2500 router. What's wierd is that my location services used to work but that's no longer the case. About a month ago my location changed for no apparent reason. I reset my router, the iPad, i'm now running ios 5. Still it's the same problem. I just can't figure it out.

  • by dhawalfrompune,

    dhawalfrompune dhawalfrompune Oct 18, 2011 10:47 AM in response to russfromfairhill
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Oct 18, 2011 10:47 AM in response to russfromfairhill

    I have fairly the same problem, but my iPad simply does not get my location. I reset my data and everything in correspondence with apple and they told me it must be a hardware issue. As soon as I went to the service centre and connected to their wifi, it got my location. The same happened in a mall. But at home, it fails. I have no clue what I should do. If anyone can help?

     

    The problem with the iphone suggestion is that no one in my close circle owns an iphone. Also, there is no wifi network in the neighbourhood.

  • by jsd2,

    jsd2 jsd2 Oct 18, 2011 11:29 AM in response to dhawalfrompune
    Level 5 (6,210 points)
    Oct 18, 2011 11:29 AM in response to dhawalfrompune
    Also, there is no wifi network in the neighbourhood.

     

    If your iPad is not  a 3G model, then that is presumably the problem. Wifi-only  iPads do not have a GPS or cellular signal detector, and the only way they can find their location is by detecting nearby wi-fi networks whose location has been entered into Apple's online database. The networks don't have to be public - they are never actually accessed, just "detected", and so they can be nearby private wireless routers.

    See

    iOS 4: Understanding Location Services

  • by dhawalfrompune,

    dhawalfrompune dhawalfrompune Oct 19, 2011 5:28 AM in response to jsd2
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Oct 19, 2011 5:28 AM in response to jsd2

    Actually, I have a wifi network at my home, and i found another way to create a wifi connection so that there are two wifi connections available in my house. Still my iPad doesn't give me location.

     

    Yes. My iPad is simply wifi.

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