1 3 4 5 6 7 Previous Next 100 Replies Latest reply: Sep 29, 2012 2:02 PM by Tom Wolsky Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • 60. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    the black sun Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    I was going to mention preferences to you but, you worked it out - nice one...

  • 61. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    andynick Level 5 Level 5 (4,840 points)

    the black sun wrote: your starting to loose it mate!

    No - started a long time ago. (Been working on it for years).

     

    Actually, I'm certain it happened - but I just tried it agaiin, and trashing prefs didn't work this time. When I reopened FCP X the new keywords were still missing.

     

    What fun!

    Andy

  • 62. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    the black sun Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    No - started a long time ago. (Been working on it for years).

     

     

    it must be catching, that comment was for Pancenter!

     

    When I reopened FCP X the new keywords were still missing.

     

    I presume you've notified Apple about this?

  • 63. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    andynick Level 5 Level 5 (4,840 points)

    the black sun wrote:

    I presume you've notified Apple about this?

    Oh - they've known about me losing it ever since I sent in my first bug report.

     

    To be serious though, I haven't yet because I'm going to do more work. I want to be absolutely certain of my facts before I report anything.

    Andy

  • 64. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    the black sun Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    God bless you kind sir...

  • 65. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    andynick Level 5 Level 5 (4,840 points)

    RedTruck wrote:

    Anyway, the point is, you can't have any more than 256 files in your undo stack. Either find where the stack is stored, or quit and restart regularly.

    Wait up, I may have jumped the gun when I said this wasn't working!

     

    The problems I had with keywords may not have been caused by the project not autosaving.

     

    I'm ticking along quite well at the moment, closiing FCP X every half hour or so, and things seem to be going well.

     

    I'll post back with more findings later (I'm going to gradually increase the periods between re-launching FCP X.

    Andy

  • 66. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    hafken Level 4 Level 4 (1,225 points)

    RedTruck wrote:

     

    Whenever you have a program that has an autosave, as well as an unlimited amount of undos, the computer has to keep every version of the file open to that you can return to it when you hit cmd-z.

    <snip>

    Anyway, the point is, you can't have any more than 256 files in your undo stack. Either find where the stack is stored, or quit and restart regularly.

     

    I know you mean well, but this is misinformation.

     

    Apple is using a database called SQLite, which is the file format of the Event and Project files. See: http://www.sqlite.org/about.html for an overview about this database format, but it essentially allows Apple to implement autosave using the built-in transaction-level safety features of SQLite. That means each "change" to the file is guaranteed to either happen or not happen; you can't end up in a half-way corrupted state, as you might if you were using those aforementioned regular files by keeping them "open" all the time.

     

    When a change occurs in FCPX, the file is opened, the database is updated atomically, then the file is closed. You can actually see the project file get incrementally bigger after each edit action you take. If a problem occurs (such as a crash) at any time, SQLite technology (theoretically) guarantees your file will simply be the same as it was before you attempted the change.

     

    Now, when the "undo" feature stops working, that really is telling you that autosave stopped working. There's a good chance that there's a "silent" problem (bug) that is not allowing the changes ("autosaves") to be written to the database (project file). Nothing is getting successfully written to the single file that represents the project. Since nothing got written, there is nothing to "undo." Thus, "undo" becomes unavailable.

     

    Whether this is a bug in Apple's FCPX code (most likely), the OS (less likely), or SQLIte (least likely) has yet to be seen. But there's a bug somewhere, that's for sure. Why this is happening to just some people is still a mystery. Hopefully Apple can figure it out soon.

     

    As for where the "undo" information is being stored, since you can't "undo" changes after you close the application, this highly suggests that Apple implements "undo" in the application's memory space (and not using extra files in a hidden location). Basically, inside memory, Apple stores the information needed to "roll back" updates it did to make the database changes in the first place. As someone else mentioned, this would be some sort of "stack" structure.

     

    The undos can be "unlimited" because a 64-bit application can address a HUGE amount of memory (theoretically 16 exabytes). The operating system takes care of letting the application do this behind the scenes using temporary files (called swap space) if the application needs more memory than is actually available. This causes slowdowns, but it doesn't prevent the application to use more memory than what you have physically installed (4GB for example). So, the fact that FCPX is 64 bit and FCP7 is 32 bit is the most probable explanation as to why the undo limit changed from 99 to unlimited. 32 bit apps have a theoretical 4GB limit, which would certainly make unlimited undo impossible for a program as complicated as FCP.

     

    What can you do with this information? Not much, I suppose. But you shouldn't expect any security based on quitting more or less often; the only real way to know that undo stopped working it to continually check if it is still available to use.

  • 67. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    Patrick Sheffield Level 7 Level 7 (29,175 points)

    Further evidence that FCP did not implement Undo as a file save - I have taken over projects so huge that they took several minutes to save. I had to turn off the autosave for a time while I whittled the project down to a more manageable size. If FCP implemented undo via saving the project to a temporary file and keeping the old one open, it would have been unusable as each action would have required a wait of several minutes before I could perform another action.

     

    So FCP didn't do it that way - and what hafken has written suggests that FCX doesn't either. As a software engineer, I can't imagine designing a system so intellectually cheap and resource hungry as an open file based undo process...

     

    just sayin'

     

    That said, if the bug causing FCX to decide that no action has taken place (thus no undo and no autosave) takes time and activity to manifest, quitting FCX periodically might avoid the trigger.

  • 68. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    RedTruck Level 4 Level 4 (2,145 points)
    As a software engineer, I can't imagine designing a system so intellectually cheap and resource hungry as an open file based undo process...

     

    just sayin'

     

    Well, I don't want to split hairs here. I'm glad this theory was either proved true or debunked, as I was only postulating. But if you read this article (albeit an older article) you'll see where I got the possibility from. I'm not a coder, and have no interest in being one. But to say that as a coder you wouldn't dream of coding an app this way, someone got paid a lot of money to code Word that way. Read about it here:

     

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/rick_schaut/archive/2004/05/19/135315.aspx

     

    Believe me, I've lost FCP work before and I'll say I'd rather lose 3 hours editing video than lose 3 hours of editing a 700 manuscript of a French translation of a book that isn't very good to begin with. Having to go line by line and redo 3 hours of work is enough to make you bang hour head against the floor and wish you were dead.

     

    So I unfairly compared FCP's undo procedure to Word's procedure. Oh well. It was worth looking into.

  • 69. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    andynick Level 5 Level 5 (4,840 points)

    RedTruck wrote:

     

    I'm glad this theory was either proved true or debunked, as I was only postulating. But if you read this article (albeit an older article) you'll see where I got the possibility from.

     

    So I unfairly compared FCP's undo procedure to Word's procedure. Oh well. It was worth looking into.

    Yup - and thanks for wasting our time. You weren't 'looking into' it, you posted it as fact.

     

    Perhaps in future you'll only post when you actually know what you're talking about, rather than taking a shot in the dark.

    Andy

  • 70. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    RedTruck Level 4 Level 4 (2,145 points)

    Ah, yes. Now I remember why I stopped visiting this forum. It became populated with nit wits who think that troubleshooting is a waste of time.

     

    As I recall, you were closing and opening and it seemed to be working. So even though the UNDO stack is configured a different way than I thought, there still seems to be a correllation between length of time in the app and the amount of SAVE operations executed by the app.

     

    I hope Apple helps all you hopeless editors out there. The rest of us will just keep making movies.

  • 71. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    hafken Level 4 Level 4 (1,225 points)

    a bit harsh Andy, Red Truck did somewhat apologize, and was just trying to help....

     

    let's all try not to get our feathers ruffled up; this is obviously a painful bug to experience. but really, there will be be no solution until Apple figures it out and posts the update. Until then, those afflicted by the bug will either have to stop using FCPX or deal with the potential loss of work from time to time.

  • 72. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    Benjamin Freedman Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    andynick wrote:

     

    Perhaps in future you'll only post when you actually know what you're talking about, rather than taking a shot in the dark.

     

    Andy

     

     

    Boy... you guys have become an uncharitable bunch. This was my first visit back after posting the original thread. Still going strong on FCP7, but I've done a couple of projects in PPro CS5.5, and have been surprisingly impressed.... YMMV...

     

    Thanks too all who've replied...

     

    Best,

     

     

    Ben

  • 73. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    andynick Level 5 Level 5 (4,840 points)

    RedTruck wrote:

     

    Ah, yes. Now I remember why I stopped visiting this forum. It became populated with nit wits who think that troubleshooting is a waste of time.

     

    As I recall, you were closing and opening and it seemed to be working. So even though the UNDO stack is configured a different way than I thought, there still seems to be a correllation between length of time in the app and the amount of SAVE operations executed by the app.

     

    I hope Apple helps all you hopeless editors out there. The rest of us will just keep making movies.

    By all means try to help. I applaud that.

     

    We all try to help each other here, but if you're putting forward a hunch, it would be worth saying so. Your post came over as factual and I took it as such. I expect others did too.

     

    I've wasted an awful lot of time with Autosave problems and to be sent off down a blind alley by someone who appeared to know what he was talking about simply compounded the frustration.

    Andy

  • 74. Re: That's it for me - Project work disappeared...
    Patrick Sheffield Level 7 Level 7 (29,175 points)

    You must admit, RedTruck, that when you said:

    RedTruck wrote:

    the computer has to keep every version of the file open to that you can return to it when you hit cmd-z. There actually isn't such a thing as "undo". It's a figure of speech. What's really happening is, the program reverts to the most recent "save". Therefore, any action you do in FCPX that is able to be undone creates a new open file. Once that limit reaches 256, you will not be able to save anymore.

     

    It didn't come off as speculation - it sounded like you knew exactly what was going on. So much so that I was hesitant to point out the problems with such a scheme. And I think your understanding of the Word undo process is not quite right either, at least as it is outlined in the link you gave. The differences are subtle, deep, and not very interesting, so I won't elaborate on them here. The outcome, in the case of Word, was still related to how many files could be opened at once.

     

    That said, don't stop trying to help - maybe just give a caveat when you're speculating.

     

    best,

     

    Patrick

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