-
All replies
-
Helpful answers
-
Sep 13, 2011 11:42 AM in response to whetty101by RichHolland,Based on some discussions at Macrumors, it seems that this is the root of the problem:
Lion is making calls for certain functionality to the GPU that it should be able to handle, but can't. This triggers the panic.
The implications of this are:
1. It is really a hardware problem, since the GPU should be able to handle the calls from Lion.
2. Apple should be able to fix it by writing a work-around in the way Lion interacts with the GPU.
3. nVidia could solve the problem by updating the drivers so that the GPU handles the calls from Lion differently (which won't happen, because nVidia has no financial incentive to do so)
4. In theory, it could be solved by installing a new GPU (hardware) that contains all the functionality it should contain.
5. This explains why the BSOD comes regardless of whether the user is using "graphics intensive" processes, bluetooth, or anything else. Whenever the call is initiated, the panic happens. For me, I don't see a pattern at all. It could be when I'm reading an email message, or it could be when I use one of the new fancy finger swipes ... whatever.
In any case, if Apple does not issue a software fix (or workaround, or whatever the OS engineers call it), I have a $2000 computer that is totally unreliable; which of course defeats the purpose of me being an Apple customer in the first place. On top of that, my newer MBP just arrived at my house via FedEx. I'm really going to be unhappy if I have issues with that one.
-
Sep 13, 2011 11:59 AM in response to RichHollandby gavingough,Rich
That's the clearest and most concise explanation I've seen so far. I was told a couple of weeks ago that "Apple engineers are working to resolve the issue" and had hoped that the 10.7.2 beta might include a solution although users who have installed the beta have reported that they are still seeing the BSOD.
It does seem that it's a driver issue. Indeed, I've been told by Apple that "The issue is definitely software/firmware/driver related". However, I suppose that It can appear to be hardware related as a replacement logic board (with a different graphics card) can, potentially, also solve the problem.
I'm so dissappinted and disillusioned with Apple's lack of response that, for the first time in many years, I have begun to think about alternatives. I'm not sure if there are any but I shall definitely think twice before investing in Apple products in the future - and that's not something that I would ever have said in the past. My confidence in Apple has deteriorated considerably.
Anyway, no point grumbling. I've raised the issue with a number of organisations who might be able to put some pressure on Apple to take some action and, out of frustration, have even written to Apple CEO Tim Cook. I'm not sure that he'll even get my e-mail, much less read it but I guess there's a chance that it might reach somebody at Apple who will notice that there are a growing number of disatissfied customers here.
Fingers crossed.
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:03 PM in response to gavingoughby gavingough,PS - if we receive a response from Tim Cook or anyone else at Apple, we will post a summary of it here, http://on.fb.me/nH7730.
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:06 PM in response to whetty101by Swingman24,Here is what happened to me and my solution to it:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3324662?tstart=0
Swingman24
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:19 PM in response to RichHollandby Jonereno,I understand what Rich is saying, but in my case, this does not make sense. I have the same MB Pro, Mid-2010 i7. It is now set running "discrete only" for four weeks now and have not had any issue whatsoever. My system is now rock-solid running on the 330.
The only issue I have is when I switch to battery power and dynamic switching takes over - my system will lock within an hour or less.
If the GPU truly can't accept these instructions, then my GPU running discretely would act the same. In fact, my GPU appears completely stable. I've tried all the scenarios that people can get their systems to fail, and my system simply will not fail.
My guess (and it is a guess only) is that there are multiple problems that are happening here:
1) There ARE a bunch of bad 330 chips (or controller, or some other supporting chips). Some of us are 'lucky' that our discrete chips don't fail. People that had problems with Snow Leopard likely had a machine with a chipm from this bad run of chips.
2) There is something that changed in Lion. Most of the issues (not all) that are being reported here started when using Lion. What Lion is doing different is unknown to us.
3) There is definitely something flaky when moving from integrated to discrete (or back). Again, this appears to be a Lion issue.
I suspect that this is a bugger of a problem to identify and solve. The symptom appears to be the same (the system locks up or has a kernel panic), but is triggered by a myriad of scenarios. I'm glad I'm not on the team debugging this one. If my guess above is correct, then we will see the following happen:
- Apple will (eventually) figure out what is happening in the driver and / or firmware. A fix will be issued and it will solve the majority of the problems.
- There will be some people with bad hardware that will continue having issues. For those people, it is my hope that Apple steps up and replaces their hardware appropriately. This truly appears to be a manufacturing defect for a significant number of people.
I agree that this is frustrating, and every hour that passes without Apple acknowledging the problem is a slap in the face to those of us that spend thousands of dollars on Apple hardware a year.
C'mon Apple! Step up and give us some information! Inform your service techs at your stores of the situation and give the some information so they don't seem to be arrogant and ignorant. We are loyal Apple customers; treat us as intelligent people and let us know what is happening. If you let us know what you are dealing with, we will be much more understanding and much less frustrated.
I truly don't think this is either a 'software only' or 'hardware only' problem. Too many different scenarios have been presented that don't fit either category perfectly.
As I said in my previous post, YMMV. But for me, "Discrete Graphics Only" works and is rock solid.
Jon
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:37 PM in response to Jonerenoby RichHolland,Good point, Jon. I agree that it is a complicated problem.
I suppose that I would add to my earlier assessment the following: It could be 100% a software problem. I suppose I'm giving Apple engineers the benefit of the doubt on that one.
But, as you suggest, it could also be an interaction problem ... that is, a problem related to how Lion interacts with the GPU's, especially in a situation that calls for switching the nVidia GPU on and off.
In other words, you could be rock solid on the 330M exactly because you aren't swtiching ... and the problem still could be in the nVidia GPU (for example, in how it handles instructions from the OS just before or just after the switch).
In any case, I am with you ... I'm glad I'm not the one that has to debug the issue.
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:41 PM in response to RichHollandby dunraz,If it´s really a software issue why does my macbook crash not only in Lion but also in Snow Leopard and Windows 7??
And these crashes are not randomly anymore.....
And why does this whole problem got even worse for me after a replace of the logicboard?
-
Sep 13, 2011 12:44 PM in response to RichHollandby Tess888,Lion is making calls for certain functionality to the GPU that it should be able to handle, but can't. This triggers the panic.
These calls are being made to an AMD GPU, which is presently being used by Apple in its new computers. I don't think that too much thought was given to the NVidia customers of 2010 because they are in the past...Perhaps it is not so easy to issue a software / firmware update that will address both graphics chips. If this was such a minor fix, it would have been done already.
NVidia could solve the problem by updating the drivers so that the GPU handles the calls from Lion differently (which won't happen, because nVidia has no financial incentive to do so)
Yes and no...their reputation will precede them, and I know many PC users and ed labs using MS PCs won't go near NVidia products with a 10 foot pole.
-
Sep 13, 2011 1:06 PM in response to whetty101by Mondo Generator,Ok everyone who's complaining here: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html
Feedback those engineers so they can fix it.
-
Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM in response to Mondo Generatorby Lars Dalby,Just send my feedback using the link provided by Mondo.
Hope others will do the same.
-
Sep 13, 2011 1:25 PM in response to whetty101by nikthegreek,i only started getting BSOD today, but since upgrading to lion i have had nothing but problems, before lion i had one freeze in a year and now its lucky to go one day without some sort of crash, this weekend i will be going back to SL, until all bugs are fixed,
-
Sep 13, 2011 1:35 PM in response to nikthegreekby Alex_French,For me things are clear. If Apple doesn't do something -free- quickly, they gonna have some news from my lawyer soon.
-
Sep 13, 2011 3:42 PM in response to whetty101by johnny_83,So far ... no official Apple reply, nobody even really knows if the real cause of the problem is hardware or software, everybody try to guess ...
Suggest to join also the facebook page "Apple Mac Black Screen of Death" http://www.facebook.com/applebsod?sk=wall in order to give more visibility to the issue.
I'm just waiting for an official Apple reply.
-
Sep 13, 2011 4:07 PM in response to Tess888by aexis,Just curious but if this is a software or GPU issue then why does replacing the logic board (for some) fix the problem? It is a bit odd that a logic board would fix a software/gpu call function, unless someone on here can explain how a logic board can fix it?
If 10.7.2 or 10.7.3 or future software patches would fix this problem then how does a new logic board instantly fix it with current 10.7.1 software? Would be really interested in the technical reasons why or if there is no explanation for now
-
Sep 13, 2011 9:14 PM in response to whetty101by Notomys,After a month of frustration, I am reluctantly declaring my system unusable, and reverting back to snow leopard.
I cannot rely on it, as whenever I am working or performing a task, without doubt it will randomly hang with the blank screen forcing me to power down the machine. It happens so often I sick of it.
Lion, don't do it.