Q: Lion randomly crashes - black screen

wired00 wrote:

 

People assume this is a software issue purely because it only started happening with Lion but I think what really happens is Lion unlocks previously hidden faults in your GPU.

 

Right. I said this several days ago in a previous post. My posts today were intended specifically to recount my experiences the the Genious Bar today. They said that they didn't know for sure, that it could be a previously hidden fault in the GPU, but based on the error logs they were seeing in my machine and others, they believed it to be a software problem. This makes sense because ... SL, no faults; Lion, faults. Problem: Lion.

I did not mean to suggest that this is defnitely the answer ...only that it is a valid form of reasoning, and it could be true.

wired00 wrote:

 

"4 replacements" sounds like hyperbole and is missleading. If its true there's the possibility this person was experiencing some other issue... Lets face it, of all the people having MB replacements I'd say a vast majority  are now satisfied and running with a trouble free $2000+ machine. Also they are no longer posting on this thread (i'm not sure why i still do!)

 

I am just taking people's word for it. There is a previous post in which a member recounts his experience. He says that there were four replacements invovled and the problem was not solved. Others reported only one or two replacements without resolution.

It may very well be that most people with MB replacements are now satisfied ... but it sounds like hyperbole for you to say that "a vast majority are now satisfied and running trouble free," when clearly you could not possibly have personally interviewed a vast majority of people who have had MB replacements. I think the most we have the right to say is "some people who have had MB replacements are satsified and running trouble free."

Given the fact that there are people who have had (if we are to believe them) one or more hardware replacements without the problem being resolved, it seems prudent for me (all things about my situation being considered) to wait it out a bit longer. Maybe the engineers will come up with a method to test and verifty which boards are good and which are bad (if it is a hardware issue) ... or maybe they will come up with a software fix (which is possible even if it is a hardware problem). In the mean time, a hardware replacement seems to me to be a gamble with very little chance of a payout.

I'm glad you still post here, and I wish others would also. It is the post "after it is fixed" that I find to be even more helpful than the posts that say "I have no idea what the problem is."

Yeah I've never had freezes in Boot Camp under Snow Leopard until I upgraded to Lion. In fact I'm in Boot Camp right now after a recent BSOD trying to play a game I've always been able to play just fine (Borderlands).

If this doesn't get fixed via softare soon, after this job I'm working on, I'm forcing the Apple store to replace either my mobo or give me a brand new computer. This is ******* rediculous.

I am the customer who posted that I have had multiple logic boards in my MacBook and the problem has not been solved. I have the email receipts and physical paper receipts stating such facts, and my problem has been escalated beyond the apple store to an apple executive representative like what has happened to someone else on the forum.

To the previous user I am not sure why you would call my detailed timeline hyperbole as it is a pretty exact step by step account of my documented experience, not some story from a friend of a friend. So before assuming customer's experiences posted on here are "hyperbole" take into account most of us are just trying to share the steps it has taken to fix this problem. Yes, it is the same problem other's have in this thread as well, not a separate issue as verified by an apple representative as well.

Hi Rich I should apologise i re-read my post and it was a little blunt. I guess it just grates me every time i read this thread how apple are handling this issue. So many inconsistancies in the genius service etc. You could try asking them to replace your MB and in the mean time provide you with a replacement MBP with clone install. If they won't do that, people have mentioned Apple have a facility of renting MBP's. you could try doing that in the few days your out of a machine?

yep you could wait but how long will it take? We own quickly depreciating items and have paid a premium for apple care etc Apple should really have announced a recal after so many months of this...

BTW Ian, Borderlands is a fantastic game

@aexis, Sorry i wasn't referring to you. That was directed at Rich. I haven't been reading on here the past week or so. I thought he was just exagerating that people have had MB's replaced 4 times as i hadn't seen that before. Ignore what i said...

Regarding your issue, that *****. I assume you've made sure they did indeed change the board each time and they didn't just give it back with no change done. Possibly it was replaced once... and the 2nd time they are just playing silly buggers because they didn't think a replacement would help? Good luck

Edit: far out aexis (just found your 4 replacement post). So whats the current status on that? You mentioned you requested a complete replacement. The "authorised repairer" i repaired my machine at mentioned that after 3 major hardware faults Apple will generally replace the entire machine. They have wasted 3 MB's + Labor trying to repair it. Surely its in both your interests to cut losses and give a new machine

Here is his post if anyone is interested

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3191083?start=1305&tstart=0

@wired no problem. This whole ordeal has just been really frustrating, I have been 2 weeks without my laptop physically and crashing for close to 2 months. I am glad apple has escalated my issue but multiple logic boards definitely did not solve the issue for me. Also yes, they actually replaced the logic boards out multiple times. I have the part numbers and the time it took to do each one on receipts.

I am awaiting a logic board replacement but have been told that Apple will "pre-test" my logic board to ensure that I won't continue to experience system crashes. Perhaps it's worth asking for "pre-tested" replacements although my guess will be that the majority of Apple support staff won't know what that means and I'm not able to explain fully what "pre-testing" would include.

There's still a lot of confusion about possible fixes and none of them seem to be providing a solution - tell me if I've missed anything or if the results are incorrect:

10.7.2 Beta = Pre-release testers report that the 10.7.2 beta doesn't include a software fix, as yet. The final release might - but it doesn't look promising, in my opinion.

Downgrade to Snow Leopard = seems to be the most popular suggestion from Apple Geniuses but SL users (myself included) are still seeing system crashes in SL.

Install gfxCardStatus = a temporary fix which allows users to force the use of the integrated card, avoiding the NVIDIA GT330 card. This works but isn't a great fix as it employes only the slower graphics capability and doesn't permit users of some secondary monitors to use their second screen.

Replacement Logic Board = Some users have been offered free replacements, some have been asked to pay for replacements. Some users report continued BSOD crashes, some have said that a replacement has provided a fix. It seems likely that Apple use reconditioned logic boards and if there's a problem with a certain type of LB then replacing it with a fully functional one of the same spec will obviously not solve the BSOD problem.

It would be interesting to know whether replacement logic boards that work are still carrying the NVIDIA GT330M graphics card or not. Any reports?

Replacement computer = Obviously the most attractive option for users and the least attractive option for Apple. I've seen one or two users saying that they've received 2011 replacements.

Personally, I think the very least that Apple should do is to publicly acknowledge the problem and offer a standard solution, not least so that all their staff know and employ a policy consistently.

If Apple say "There's a fix in 10.7.2, released in two weeks" then great, at least we would know. Perhaps they might say "If you're affected, bring your computer to an Apple store for testing and a free, replacement, pre-tested logic board". But I guess shareholders don't want to hear admissions of problems and that's possibly a more important consideration than a relatively small number of unhappy customers on their forum.

Anyway, until we hear more, I think the above solutions are all that's available and that the only permanent fixes right now are either a replacement (working) logic board or a replacement computer. I would push your Apple contact to provide one or the other and refuse to accept anything less. Personally, I'm hopeful that escalating my complaint to an Executive Relations level is going to finally get me one or the other.

If you're not seeing a satisfactory response from Apple, keep pushing or write directly to Apple CEO TIm Cook <edited by host> I'm guessing that he never sees these e-mails but after writing to this address I got a call from Apple HQ in California within four hours and a further call from a nearby Executive Relations staff member soon after.

<edited by host>

@Alex_French---I ran SL on my MBP, i7, 512NVidia, 8GB Ram for 15 months, and never had a black screen or crash in all that time...including the last upgrade, 10.6.8. This sounds unbelievable, but my system was so stable, that I rarely made back ups or used Time Machine...bad habit on my part. Lion was a horrible installation, I had 3 weeks of black screens, crashes, permissions problems, freezes, and overheating...and then everything started working again. A bad experience, but I'm operational again. Why? I made some minor changes listed in the previous pages, but I don't think this did anything except make me feel I was doing something to fix all the problems. Apple sent me a box to send my computer for service, but I never used it. I have no idea what went on here?????

Alex_French wrote:

 

Am I the only one who already got some (but less) BSOD with Swow Leopard ?

Hello gavingough,

I thought I'd add one scenario you don't have listed. I have a mid 2010 Macbook Pro that I put Lion on about a month ago and thats how long I've been following this thread.

I have never gotten BSOD while having my external display plugged in. I use my external display all day for work with Lion installed every day for a month now.

I only get BSOD when I unplug my external display and forget to open gfxCardStatus and switch to Integraded Only.

My NVIDIA GT330M always performs perfectly with the second display plugged in.

I'm sure there is a good chance that this will not have a software fix and I will eventually need to go down and get hardware replaced, but since I can get by for now without anymore BSOD (and I have the 3 year Apple Care) I'm not in a hury to give up my computer for a few days. Plus neither Apple or NVIDIA has even acknowleded the problem and I see that not everyone has very much success with the logic board replacements.

I will place a couple phone calls and emails this week though to help out on putting pressure on them.

So I have been having the same issues, I live in NZ, so no genius bar just apple specific retailers who arent owned by apple.

I spent a good 3 hours in a few calls to apple speaking to their senior reps, made it clear that even though it was out of warranty the computer has faulted through no fault of my own, that it was clearly the software udpate to lion that has done it, and that I will not in any way shape or form pay for repairs, they approved a warranty extension and got me to take it in to the local apple store, what I didnt know is that the extention purely covered diagnostics for it to be looked at, the local store advised me they had to ask apple to then approve the replacement logic board, i rang and they also rang and it was done.... eventually. The store ordered it and it took 3 business days to show up (plus 2 weekend days) so when I got my computer back it had been in for a week and a half. I brought it in to work and could not get it to BSOD so I was pretty happy. This was on Thursday last week.

Fast forward to sunday and ****. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150802254385142&set=a.53987375141.13157 6.525200141&type=1&theater this happened, and kept happening, over and over again through sunday, and monday. So I rang apple care and gave them the same case number and they escalated me back to the senior reps (probably some doozy case notes of me getting rather angry) I forwarded the various screenshots of thiese errors happening on a 4 day old logic board and they requested I take it back to the local store where it sits now, waiting for yet more diagnostics and more repair, where I made it clear that being without the only mac we have is affecting my ability to do the things I bought it for (photography, work). Yes I could buy macdrive but thats not the point, the store i take it to has no loan machines, and I can not afford to rent a machine so thats not an option either. The lattice screen of death isnt as forceable as the black screen, but its still frequent and still fully crashes.

I had occasional kernal panics in snow leopard in the month or two before lion came out but i narrowed down the cause and just stopped using anything that caused it, Skype video and skype screenshare and facetime. If I didnt use those I didnt get any kernal panics.

As a quick run down for my history, this is my first mac, however I have been an iPod, iPhone, iPod touch, iPad fan for many years, these and my photography is what prompted me to give it a go. I have had 3 windows laptops (HP, Compaq and Sony) over the last 10 years, each lasting at least 3 years before I upgraded (or it was stolen), not due to hardware issues, but due to the technology being old and they became slow and clunky. Each one cost me around 2k NZD or under. The last one is still going strong being used by my husband for basic browsing and playing is RC Heli simulator. I then fork out nearly 4k NZD for the 2010 mbp i7 and it has only lasted 16 months, before becoming something quite unusable.

Yes I can put it in for repairs, but its not fixing it and I still end up with a steaming pile of metal that doesnt work for the purpose I bought it for. I am also without a machine while its in for repairs as there are no loan machines. Oh and any replacement parts have to be ordered in from Australia.  This is extremely frustrating I wish they would just replace it so I have something that works rather than driving me closer and closer to going back to Sony for a stable machine.

Come on Apple, either issue a recall or a press statement, playing ostrich games with your heads in the same is just turning your loyal fanbase against you. Its time to manup and face the press.

gavingough wrote:

<snip>

 

It would be interesting to know whether replacement logic boards that work are still carrying the NVIDIA GT330M graphics card or not. Any reports?

<snip>

System Information says, of my new logic board (no BSOD for two weeks, yeah!):

  Chipset Model:    NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M

  Type:    GPU

  Bus:    PCIe

  PCIe Lane Width:    x16

  VRAM (Total):    512 MB

  Vendor:    NVIDIA (0x10de)

  Device ID:    0x0a29

  Revision ID:    0x00a2

  ROM Revision:    3560

  gMux Version:    1.9.21

Don't know what it said before....

All,

It really is quite simple - get the Logic Board replacement!

I've been experiencing the same issues as everyone else with a mid-2010 15" in Lion (was fine in SL). I booked a 'Genius' apointment, demonstrated the 'Photobook Effects' panic on a completely clean install with latest updates (on a memory stick). I then demonstrated the same thing on their own clean installed Lion 10.7.1 on an external hard drive (you can ask them to do this if you don't have a clean install). After this also crashed, the 'Genius' was happy that it was a hardware fault, no questions asked.

My mac is 4 months out of the limited 12m warrantly and I have never bought Apple Care, but after explaining that under EU law, a warranty must be granted for a 'resonable persiod of time' specific to the product, I argued that a £2000 laptop should be expected to last a lot longer than 12 months (and also said that I'd happily put this to the courts if it got to that point). With a little negotiation, they agreed a SAME-DAY & FREE replacement of my logic board by the same 'Genius' that witnessed the problem. I said that I cannot go without my mac for a single day, sice I use my mac for work.

So I dropped my mac off to the Regent Street store the following week (I could no go without it that day, and they needed to order the part) and picked it up the same evening. I'm now a happy owner of a working mid-2010 mac. I'm now unable to crash the OS and no longer require gfxStatus.

Prior to getting the replacement, I'd been running the very latest 10.7.2 beta (C57). Although it seems that Apple developers are trying their damdest to fix the problem, the issue still exists, athough much better in this beta. In the latest beta, I was unable to crash the mac in a reproducible manner, so I'd warn people NOT TO WAIT for the imminent 10.7.2 release if you want to demonstrate the problem in store!

So, my advice - get the replacement logic board before it's too late, else you're gonna find it very hard to reproduce the problem in the latest update. And the problem WILL still exist, even if the apple developers do mange to prodcue a software workaround. Is that what you really want? You're gonna have un unstable macbook! I for one would rather working hardware - who knows what problems may developer further down the line.

So please, quit waiting for a sofware fix. This is a HARWARE issue. Apple are replacing the Logic Boards, so what are you waiting for?

Absolutely. The realm of service you in is how issues are isolated swiftly.

Absolutely correct !

I got my out-of-warranty MBP mid 2010 replaced last week and I also reinstalled a clean Lion and now, it works like a charm...

Installing a clean Lion when already running on Lion was in fact way easier as what I had presumed at the beginning, supposing you have a TimeMachine backup.

Here is how I did :

• Make sure that you have a TM backup done.
• Make sure that you did not exclude important folders out of that backup, and if so copy them somewhere else before... For example, I exlude my downloads folder from the TM backup but did not want to loose it.
• Restart from the recovery partition (option key pressed at start)
• go to Disc Utility and erase your Lion partition
• go back to the main menu and install a fresh copy of Lion. You will be asked to enter your AppleId to download it.
• Once the installation is finished, you will be presented the Migration Assistant. This is where you choose your Time Machine Backup and what exactly you want to reimport.
• I choosed to reimport as little as possible (basically Applications and my user folder) to prevent reimporting something that may have been one of the causes of my crashes.

Et voilà !

... just for everyone who doesn't have such a supportive apple "genius" team around and is not able or willing to do without his MBP for the time the replacement takes (like i am): You don't have to have the external display connected to prevent the crash from happening, just plugging the adapter into the display port does the trick (at least for me, MBP 6,2 Mid-2010).

Besides, great that apple does the LB replacements. But it really ****** me off, that this issue is still not known at EVERY apple store EVERYWHERE. I don't want to make a genius appointment (how weird is that...) nor demonstrate anything that should be commonly known by now (at least to apple employees). The last thing i'd like to do is perform a fresh install just to proof that the bug is still there...