Q: Lion WiFi Connection Problem

Hi gphonei,

Thanks again for your reaction.

But now what i understand from your explanation is that i bought an iMac for € 2400 which is working like a Windows machine from the 90's and if i want to have it work properly, i have to buy AppleCare, although i have my warranty.
I wrote that a supplier should test their products. You don't need feedback from your customers if your product is perfect. If not you better listen to your customers.

mccass wrote:

 

Hi gphonei,

Thanks again for your reaction.

But now what i understand from your explanation is that i bought an iMac for € 2400 which is working like a Windows machine from the 90's and if i want to have it work properly, i have to buy AppleCare, although i have my warranty.

 

You get One year of AppleCare with your computer.  AppleCare extends that for 3 more years, which is practically the "entire life" of the device from most perspectives of technology maturation.  For the first year, you can call AppleCare, and/or go to the Genius Bar and be served.  This is important for you, because it helps you solve problems for yourself.  It's important to Apple, because it allows them to collect and document information about common problems so that they can decide if a "fix" is necessary, or if just providing a procedure in their support automation system to deal with it is enough.

People here are largely getting "procedures from the support automation system" used by AppleCare it seems to me.  Sometimes that is working.  If you don't go back to Apple when that stops working, or otherwise gets worse, you have missed the opportunity to get your problem resolved.  Like it, or not, you have to participate in support activities if you want them to help you.

I wrote that a supplier should test their products. You don't need feedback from your customers if your product is perfect. If not you better listen to your customers.

The majority of people reporting problems with computer systems are reporting issues related to their ignorance of the systems or circumstances.  As my previous posts here discuss, WiFi RF issues are numorous and complex to resolve without the raw data of what is actually going wrong.  That is why Apple engineers are sending out procedures to turn on debug logging and then collect the output of that logging.  They want to help, but if you don't want to use the processes in place, than they can't actually provide you an answer.

There is not just "one reason" why your WiFi is not working.  To think that is just silly.  Buggy WiFi routers are everywhere.  Most routers are shipped with buggy firmware, just able to barely work and needing updates.  So, that's one of the first things they are going to tell you to check.  Some routers have broken implementations of 802.11n because they were released so early in the development of that standard, and have not been updated because newer models have made them outdated.  So, you might have to buy a new router.

I really don't want to just sit here and reitterate 10,000 ways your WiFi could be broken and it not be an Apple supportable problem.

I do believe that there is a bug in Lion that some people are experiencing.  But, I for one, have 4 Mac's, 1 from 2008, two from 2009 and one from 2011, none of which have had a recuring problem.  I did see the "will not reconnect coming out of sleep" on 2 of them with the 10.7.3 update.  But no problems before that.  A friend's mother's new iMac had the problem until he moved to 5ghz, then it stopped.

The "will not reconnect coming out of sleep" problem, for me, identifies that there was a problem with recovering from an RF session interruption.  Whether it is sleep, or just a bad RF environment due to bluetooth, baby monitor or whatever, something was not reconnecting.

Don't get defensive and argumentative over my suggestions that you need to hound AppleCare.  That is your path to resolution, like it or not...

gphonei wrote:

 

You get One year of AppleCare with your computer.  AppleCare extends that for 3 more years, which is practically the "entire life" of the device from most perspectives of technology maturation.  For the first year, you can call AppleCare, and/or go to the Genius Bar and be served.  This is important for you, because it helps you solve problems for yourself.  It's important to Apple, because it allows them to collect and document information about common problems so that they can decide if a "fix" is necessary, or if just providing a procedure in their support automation system to deal with it is enough.

 

People here are largely getting "procedures from the support automation system" used by AppleCare it seems to me.  Sometimes that is working.  If you don't go back to Apple when that stops working, or otherwise gets worse, you have missed the opportunity to get your problem resolved.  Like it, or not, you have to participate in support activities if you want them to help you.

I wrote that a supplier should test their products. You don't need feedback from your customers if your product is perfect. If not you better listen to your customers.

The majority of people reporting problems with computer systems are reporting issues related to their ignorance of the systems or circumstances.  As my previous posts here discuss, WiFi RF issues are numorous and complex to resolve without the raw data of what is actually going wrong.  That is why Apple engineers are sending out procedures to turn on debug logging and then collect the output of that logging.  They want to help, but if you don't want to use the processes in place, than they can't actually provide you an answer.

 

There is not just "one reason" why your WiFi is not working.  To think that is just silly.  Buggy WiFi routers are everywhere.  Most routers are shipped with buggy firmware, just able to barely work and needing updates.  So, that's one of the first things they are going to tell you to check.  Some routers have broken implementations of 802.11n because they were released so early in the development of that standard, and have not been updated because newer models have made them outdated.  So, you might have to buy a new router.

 

I really don't want to just sit here and reitterate 10,000 ways your WiFi could be broken and it not be an Apple supportable problem.

 

I do believe that there is a bug in Lion that some people are experiencing.  But, I for one, have 4 Mac's, 1 from 2008, two from 2009 and one from 2011, none of which have had a recuring problem.  I did see the "will not reconnect coming out of sleep" on 2 of them with the 10.7.3 update.  But no problems before that.  A friend's mother's new iMac had the problem until he moved to 5ghz, then it stopped.

 

The "will not reconnect coming out of sleep" problem, for me, identifies that there was a problem with recovering from an RF session interruption.  Whether it is sleep, or just a bad RF environment due to bluetooth, baby monitor or whatever, something was not reconnecting.

 

Don't get defensive and argumentative over my suggestions that you need to hound AppleCare.  That is your path to resolution, like it or not...

Hi,

I have been having the same problem of wifi not working after the imac wakes up from sleep mode.

I tried to follow this posts and apply a couple of solutions which never worked.

You might be right about the complexity of wifi radio etc...

But, my imac was working perfectly happy with Snow Leopard. As soon as I upgraded the O.S. to Lion, with exactly the same hardware inside and outside the imac (i.e. router, bt devices and so on) the problem appeared.

That to me sounds very much like a software bug introduced by the operative system hence it is Apple responsability, aside AppleCare, to fix it. And it is unbelievable they haven't fixed it yet!

Hi Ferulee,

What gphonei explains about the Apple system is probably right. Apple has got a one year warranty.

Which in Holland is not legal, but thats diffficult to arrange for a global company.

But if you have a problem they will help you very good. Nice people and good service.

And then with the AppleCare they will still help you.

There opinion is service/support is not for free.

Clear, but arrogant.

Thats the same attitude which brought the Roman Empire into the well known problems :o)

Cheers

Ruud

Exaclty the same issues here, I called applecare about 2 weeks after it expired as I got sick of waiting for a fix and was asked to pay.

So I have tried my Mac with 4 wireless routers at home, wireless tethers on various phones and other networks from home to buiness class.  My MBP has the exact same flakey wireless connectivity that only happens when Lion is on it. 

None of the devices that have been on the wireless network suffer including (over time) 2 x printers, Wii, PS3, 7 x laptops (1 Apple, 3 IBM, 1 HP, 1 Tosh and 2 Fujitsu), Ipad, 4 mobile phones and various other peoples h/w.

The ONLY fix that I have found to work is a downgrade of the wireless drivers, which then means I have to manually select the network every time I connect. 

This is clearly a defect in Lion, and given the length and time of duration of this thread one that Apple doesn't care to fix.

ferulee46 wrote:

 

Hi,

I have been having the same problem of wifi not working after the imac wakes up from sleep mode.

I tried to follow this posts and apply a couple of solutions which never worked.

You might be right about the complexity of wifi radio etc...

 

But, my imac was working perfectly happy with Snow Leopard. As soon as I upgraded the O.S. to Lion, with exactly the same hardware inside and outside the imac (i.e. router, bt devices and so on) the problem appeared.

That to me sounds very much like a software bug introduced by the operative system hence it is Apple responsability, aside AppleCare, to fix it. And it is unbelievable they haven't fixed it yet!

This indicates to me, that you are probably one of the people who have the real "Lion WiFi problem".  I am not saying there is NO bug.  I am saying that for some people, they are not experiencing the bug, or perhaps not experiencing only the "Lion WiFi problem".  So your only choice is to talk to Apple through their support channel in the form of AppleCare.  If you have an Apple MAC, less than one year old, you should have access to AppleCare and the Genius Bar, free of charge.  Go there, and hound them.  Make it clear that you are not going away, and make it clear that you are not happy to waste your own time, waiting for them to decide there is a problem, and to eventually fix it.  Ask to speak to a person higher up the company ladder.  Demand phone numbers, and make calls.

You need to talk intelligently and directly, no name calling no, hissy fits.  Just tell them how it is!

goobervision wrote:

 

Exaclty the same issues here, I called applecare about 2 weeks after it expired as I got sick of waiting for a fix and was asked to pay.

 

So I have tried my Mac with 4 wireless routers at home, wireless tethers on various phones and other networks from home to buiness class.  My MBP has the exact same flakey wireless connectivity that only happens when Lion is on it. 

 

None of the devices that have been on the wireless network suffer including (over time) 2 x printers, Wii, PS3, 7 x laptops (1 Apple, 3 IBM, 1 HP, 1 Tosh and 2 Fujitsu), Ipad, 4 mobile phones and various other peoples h/w.

 

The ONLY fix that I have found to work is a downgrade of the wireless drivers, which then means I have to manually select the network every time I connect. 

 

This is clearly a defect in Lion, and given the length and time of duration of this thread one that Apple doesn't care to fix.

Are you willing to go through a small exercise to see if we can find out what is causing the disconnect?  You'd need to put the right driver back in, and then run some commands that are out of an email that I was sent by Apple Engineers who are trying to collect data and/or fix problems for their customers.

Here's the text of the email and the fetch_debug.sh file contents.  This collects all kinds of logging into the resulting tar(1) file.  You can unpack that somewhere and look through the wifi logging etc, and perhaps there will be a simple answer in there as to why your wifi is disconnecting.  It will give you information to give to Apple to tell them more about what is happening.

-----------------------------------------

Hi,

Step 4: Disabling the logs ( Paste the command below in Terminal)

Yes, more than happy to try.  I actually logged a couple of calls, but due to work and getting stuck in the first line scripts simply gave up the first time around.

Hi all. I don't mean to add to the noise here, but had a question that I needed to think through. Hopefully someone here will be able to offer some advice.

My wife and I have started experiencing wi-fi issues, similar to what others have spoken of. However, looking into it more, I think it's only our router (2nd one that's been goofy on us). The ISP claims it's our computer, but then again, our ISP doesn't really know what it's doing half the time.

Anyway, I experience little to no issues at work, using our school's wi-fi. I stay connected all day, though my MBP, iPhone, and iPad. At home, my iPhone and iPad experience very few issues, if any, but both of our MBP's will be online one minute, and then drop the connection a few minutes later (or 20 min, or 3 hours. It's random as far as we can tell).

So it does seem that our router is old, broken, out-of-date, etc., but I'm not skilled enough to really be able to check for sure. Does this sound reasonable to you?

In about a week and a half, I'm taking our MBP's to an Apple Store to get them checked out and see what they say anyway. However, what do you think?

Thanks!

hi i have had the same problems as all here. no matter what i tried it still dropped  i even got a week without dropping but it always drops out. i have a modem that connects to my wi fi wirelessly and like most of the posts here it connects and stays connected to phone ipad printer without dropping out but my imac which i bought in mid 2011 never had a stable connection it came with lion preloaded. now lion is a fantastic system when the wi fi is working properly i would not change it for anything else.in frustration 2 weeks ago i purchased a new wi fi router connected to the modem via ethernet cable and so far it is rock solid not one drop in two weeks constantly working great just like apple intended it to. so i hope this helps and i know some will say why should i have to buy this well thats just a fact of life lion just does not work with older modems and routers hope this helps you as it helped me cheers

Some good news...

In a collaboration with the University of Pennsylvania and Washington and Lee University, the top tier of Apple engineers is just now admitting a problem and have been working feverishly to fix it (why it took so long for them to admit/figure it out, we'll never know considering how long this thread is). WLU where I am Director of Law Technology has been providing numerous captures and submitting information to Apple to hopefully have the problem rectified in an upcoming update. We haven't been given a timeframe, but thanks to the University of Pennsylvnia for providing enough pressure to get Apple engineers involved with this.

Very happy for those who have found a workaround, but if you hold tight, you won't have to buy a new router or change your APs to 5ghz only (NOT feasible for many enterprise environments). Just wanted to report to the many people still experiencing problems.

BenHart67,

That is hopefully good news.  Like many others, my problems began late last year after I upgraded from Snow Leopard to Lion.   After trying many solutions on this board last December I contacted Applecare because I had support from the upgrade.  They walked me through all of their solutions and nothing worked.  I had bought a brand new Airport Extreme and that didn't work either.  For a variety of reasons I ended up getting a brand new modem from Comcast.  Problem solved!  For about 2-3 months.  Then it started it up again.  I know that it is a problem with Lion. My iPad, iPhone and my daughter's computer which is on Snow Leopard all work fine on our wireless.  I have all updated routers and modems.  I can't tell you how many times I have restarted my modem and router.  I have been willing to try some things posted here but I won't go so far to replace my drivers with those from Snow Leopard or a few of the other less savory options.

I have been an Apple user since the early 90's and have never had a problem like this one.  I really like Lion but this internet thing is very frustrating.  So I'll keep my fingers crossed that the University of Pennsylvania will get this solved.  Keep us posted.

Solution: changend the linksys wrt54G ofr a D-link DI-524 N150. No more issue.

Well, no more with macbooks... now, HP pronter and router...lool

I had similar problems. It all started when I went from Snow Leopard to Lion(a clean install) on my mid 2010 21.5" iMac. Tried all the tweaks but nothing worked. Both my iPads were fine and never ever dropped out especially when run alongside my iMac.

Came across the Rys Sommefeldt article and liked his logic ie to change one of the Lion drivers back to that that was in Snow Leopard - and yes it can be reversed. But having read all the feedback on the various forums which mostly appeared to have missed the likely logical cause of the problem and in the absence of anything definitive coming out of Apple, I tried it myself and haven't had a problem since. Lets face it this problem has been around for a year!!

Yes, I can hear the howls of anguish coming from all the purists and the Apple people but the bottom line is that it worked for ME.

Having had a day and a half of drop out free WiFi after installing a Snow Leopard driver, I decided to prove that the action I had taken was correct(which I didn't). So I did a clean install of Lion + all my other software. Doing this of course installs the Lion driver for the WiFi. This new install complete with all the updates worked a treat, with rock steady WiFi. Think it's known as Sod's Law.

I have to conclude from this that if your WiFi keeps dropping out, that it is caused by a coming together of a combination of software, hardware, tweaks that you may have applied over a perion of time and possible software corruption. How anybody can find a single "one size fits all" remedy, I don't know.

If I get a repeat of the problem, I will try the Snow Leopard driver first as a quick fix as I know it might work and then ultimatey a fresh install if all else fails.

Hope this adds to the general confusion!!!