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hairynugget, what you write is so true.

I am a Windows user since 3.1 but bought a MacBook two years ago to start testing my applications on OS X. After using it as 2ndary system for a while I've tried to do some actual work and got suprised how much fun it was. Around 2 months ago I made the decision to buy a Mac Pro as my next system, that would have been GIANT step considering the intense price difference (I assemble all my PCs on my own and recycle some older parts, so we're talking 4-5 times difference here).

Then Lion came out and I lost all interest in OS X - completely

I can't describe it any better: I really tried to use it, but I felt insulted constantly.

I think I know where Apple is heading, this auto-resume and always-save stuff speaks volumes. Maybe it's great for novice users, but I really couldn't care less. I'm not interested in this future. I prefer control over the filesystem and not live in constant fear that I bump a file I'm not supposed to touch.

Now I bought a new PC and reverted my MacBook back to Snow Leopard. Happy times.

It sound as if you don't understand Apple's behavior.

I just retrieved an article from which I extracted some words :

Watching the launch of Apple’s iPad, I was struck by the fact that Steve Jobs famously doesn’t pay too much attention to customer research. (“We do no market research. We don’t hire consultants,” he said recently). And yet – or should that be because of – this refusal to pay much attention to what customers say they want, Apple has become the ultimate game changer.

Nothing new under the sun and as far as I know, they got good results with this kind of behavior.

But for sure you prove to be better managers. 😉

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 18 octobre 2011 16:22:09

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

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stefano67 wrote:

hairynugget, I agree 100% with you.

Hairynugget, yes, that's perfect.

I, too, went back to Snow Leopard because I need an OS, not a toy.

Koenig, you're going to be the last person out of the room. Don't forget to turn off the lights.

Four other excerpts :

“You can’t just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they’ll want something new.” – Inc. Magazine

“When I hire somebody really senior, competence is the ante. They have to be really smart. But the real issue for me is, Are they going to fall in love with Apple? Because if they fall in love with Apple, everything else will take care of itself.They’ll want to do what’s best for Apple, not what’s best for them, what’s best for Steve, or anybody else.” – via

“I’ve always wanted to own and control the primary technology in everything we do.” – The Seed of Apple’s Innovation

“It’s really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them.” – Businessweek, 1998

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 18 octobre 2011 17:02:53

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Hi Yvan - sadly I think I probably do understand Apple's behaviour only too well! Yes they have usually (but by no means always) got good results by behaving as they do, but there's a fine line between being a leading game-changer and simply being arrogant and it seems to me that Apple has never really been to sure (or perhaps simply not cared) where that line is. I've been a Mac user for long enough to remember when the attitude of most Mac users was 'Apple? - love the product, hate the company!'

I'm not naive enough to expect Apple to change its development plans and policies because a few users don't like where it's going, though it does seem to me that any company which doesn't at least cast an eye over a user-forum discussion that has been read by nearly 28,000 people is perhaps missing an opportunity?

You are absolutely right that there's nothing new under the sun, and Apple like any other coporate entity is ultimately only interested in revenue. If in the process they can make the source of that revenue cult products that the world and its dog wants and if they can also seemingly make their customers believe they are doing them a personal favour by building and selling those products, then good on them! And if, in pursuing the richest seams of dollars in the consumer markets they leave behind a few (in terms of the total Apple user-base) disaffected long-term loyal customers - well that's just a little co-lateral damage, isn't it?

All I am saying is that I think it's a pity if Apple can't or won't accommodate those customers, but if that is the case, then if and when it becomes un-tenable for me to continue to use the products which I use now and with which I am very happy, then if Apple doesn't offer me a solution, I'll look elsewhere.

@Hairynugget

Precisely what I've been saying, though not quite as eloquently, since about three days after Lion was released. What I'd really like to see is either:

i. Apple continue parallel development of SL with Lion (we've still got potentially a 10.6.9 release to come, and they could always employ the same trick as kids counting down to something they can't avoid {10.6.9 and a quarter, 10.6.9 and a half, 10.6.9 and two thirds...😁 }). or

ii. Allow SL to go out to Open Source.

Both are highly unlikely, though I'd imagine ii. is a fraction more plausible than i. Which leaves two less desirable possibilities, as far as I'm concerned

iii. Another hardware manufacturer realises there's a niche market to be filled by producing an OS that would fill the needs of Apple's dis-enfranchised customers. I'd throw out Lenovo or even Acer as possible players there, but both would have to do some **** of a lot of work to up their build quality as well as get into the whole new arena of OS development. A different way-out-there thought: It'd be nice to see a German electronics engineering manufacturer like Siemens look into the personal computer market; I could see them doing a great job of it.

iv. Probably the only viable alternative if you can't stomach Windows (I can't, even when I use it on Parallels it drives me mad with hate and frustration in about two minutes) is hoping for some semi-decent Linux distro run on Mac hardware.

I didn't even include the option that Apple might realise the marriage of OS X and iOS into one clunky OS-for-Dummies system was a huge mistake and abandon the whole model and return to its roots...too much like wishful thinking. Is it worth throwing any more money at Apple once this machine, and the SL OS are beyond use? Not for me.

Like another poster above, I was going to buy a new 17" MBP this year and retire this 13" one to my college-age niece. However, I've since put off that plan and bought a new external monitor instead. I'll be hoping this machine (a 2009) will give me a couple of more years service and that by the time I have to replace it, I'll know where I'm going to spend my money.

Softwater - some really interesting ideas there!

I agree that parallel development of SL is highly unlikely (though wouldn't that be a great solution for many people!) but allowing it to go Open Source could be at least equally as good....

After the way Apple regarded and ultimately treated the clone manufacturers in the '90's, I can't really see them allowing even a discontinued OS product to be developed commercially elsewhere? Or indeed anyone being willing to sign up for it without some cast-iron guarantee they wouldn't subsequently be cut off at the knees on Apple's whim.

I'm not sure that (initially at least) the hardware issue is too much of a problem though - Macs seem to outlive equivalent spec PC's by a significant number of useful years, so current Mac hardware hopefully has a decent lifespan left in it. So continued development of SL would have an existing ongoing hardware platform for at least a while.

If I had the spare cash at the moment (which sadly I don't) I would buy a mid or mid-to-high spec Mac Pro with SL on the basis that my existing MBP's comfortably do everything I need them too, and therefore a similarly configured Mac Pro would probably continue to do so for even longer. As it is, like you I'm keeping my fingers crossed that a suitable solution presents itself in the interim.

Oh, and Yvan - whilst it may be true (if a tad hopeful) that many people don't know what they want until you show it to them, it is absolutely certain that more people know what they don't want when you force it upon them! And they get really rather miffed when they have something they really like and value, and you take it away from them!

hairynugget wrote:

Hi Yvan - sadly I think I probably do understand Apple's behaviour only too well! Yes they have usually (but by no means always) got good results by behaving as they do, but there's a fine line between being a leading game-changer and simply being arrogant and it seems to me that Apple has never really been to sure (or perhaps simply not cared) where that line is. I've been a Mac user for long enough to remember when the attitude of most Mac users was 'Apple? - love the product, hate the company!'

I'm not naive enough to expect Apple to change its development plans and policies because a few users don't like where it's going, though it does seem to me that any company which doesn't at least cast an eye over a user-forum discussion that has been read by nearly 28,000 people is perhaps missing an opportunity?

You are absolutely right that there's nothing new under the sun, and Apple like any other coporate entity is ultimately only interested in revenue. If in the process they can make the source of that revenue cult products that the world and its dog wants and if they can also seemingly make their customers believe they are doing them a personal favour by building and selling those products, then good on them! And if, in pursuing the richest seams of dollars in the consumer markets they leave behind a few (in terms of the total Apple user-base) disaffected long-term loyal customers - well that's just a little co-lateral damage, isn't it?

All I am saying is that I think it's a pity if Apple can't or won't accommodate those customers, but if that is the case, then if and when it becomes un-tenable for me to continue to use the products which I use now and with which I am very happy, then if Apple doesn't offer me a solution, I'll look elsewhere.

A manager is always balancing before taking a decision. Some always decide that they must take care of old customers. Other bet that dropping them is not a problem because the new ones will be more profitable.

Apple already did that in the past and they are doing the same now.

Listen Steve Jobs in the late WWDC keynote. It was clear that from his point of view, the computers which we are acustomed to are tools from the past, or at least tools with no future. On the other hand, the iOS devices (in France we say iBidules) are the tools of tomorrow. His way to accomodate "long term loyal users" wasn't to drop them the brute force (what I would have do) but to build a synthesis of iOS and OSX so that we may continue to use our old tools. For sure, some of us will be so heavily hurted that they will decide to move elsewhere but it's a small loss compared to the huge profit which is reachable with iOS devices.

As I wrote several times, I hate iDevices. I have no iPod, no iPhone, no iPad. I even refuse wireless phones built only to phone. But I know that I'm a man of the past. I guess that for the 3 or 4 years to come, cash made upon iOS devices will be 10 times the one made upon OSX ones so I understand the choice.

When a leg is caught by gangrene, better cut it. Isn't it.

Lion is available since three months. Some "long term loyal users" are complaining that it don't fit their needs but look at AAPL. Some analysts announced a huge drop linked to Steeve Jobs death. The quote dropped more when he resigned and yesterdays it was at its historical higher level. And I guess that the earnings report to come will again beat records.

From time to time, some investors leave the boat,

from time to time, some customers leave the boat.

Really not a problem as long as the boat is profitable.

I already say goodbye and good luck to those which will move.

I'm really not afraid to remain the only onecontinuing to work with a mac.

Maybe it's because my professional carrer, I deliberately choose to drop customers which didn't wished to play the game I was defining rules.

AppleWorks or iWork users which read me from years know that I often wrote:

the only valid rule is : use the tool which fit your needs.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 18 octobre 2011 20:46:44

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

From time to time, some investors leave the boat,

from time to time, some customers leave the boat.

Really not a problem as long as the boat is profitable.

I already say goodbye and good luck to those which will move.

I'm really not afraid to remain the only onecontinuing to work with a mac.

Maybe it's because my professional carrer, I deliberately choose to drop customers which didn't wished to play the game I was defining rules.

AppleWorks or iWork users which read me from years know that I often wrote:

the only valid rule is : use the tool which fit your needs.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 18 octobre 2011 20:46:44

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Thats fine while your flavour of the month but every time you choose to alienate customers you loose more and more of them. I understand what your saying though, everyone does that

At this time, iOS market is more profitable than OSX one.

So, dropping 10 customers to be able to get 100 new ones isn't necessarily a bad choice.

How many mac users would leave the boat ? I guess less than 10%.

I'm really not afraid by such a bet.

But for sure, I have no crystal ball 😉

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 18 octobre 2011 22:57:39

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 4 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.0

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Yvan, I don't disagree with anything you say here - I think we're saying pretty much the same things.

Apple's behaviour makes good commercial sense for them and I'm neither hurt nor surprised by it. But I am disappointed that having found a tool that fits my needs as near to perfectly as I'm ever likely to get, to discover that when it becomes blunt, I won't be able to sharpen it or fit a new blade.

Disappointed also to discover that perhaps I too am a man of the past but rather sooner than I had anticipated! But that's no reason not to protest about things I would like to see change in the hope that perhaps they will!

So what your saying is never question a new product. Your a great consumer.

The previous post should read "you're" (short for "you are") in both cases.

Yvan's only role in here is to systematically contradict everything everyone else posts.

Oh and by the way: when is Apple going to fix these discussion forums so that instead of sending me way back to the top of the thread every time I do something, I'm sent back to where I was ? The fact that Apple is unable to do this may be an indicator of how little they care about users.

Yvan will now respond to this post by reminding us all that Apple is ruled by a Higher Intelligence.

As soon as I click on "update" at the bottom of the window, I will be sent way back to the beginning of the thread. Dumb, dumb. 😟