Currently Being ModeratedJul 29, 2011 5:08 AM (in response to coocooforcocoapuffs)
Ha that's funny! But even u seemed confused. I think what Apple has decided to do is to make versioning systematic across the OS. As a creative who has tried so many pitiful attempts to do this on a filetype or product by product basis, I think Apple is making the right decision. Even with what the got today, it looks like it has the potential to solve a problem that's been around since the IBM/370. I have no clue why people compare Lion to an iPhone and shy away. That's just smart marketing by Apple and has nothing to do with the OS. Just ignore launchbad, it's eyecandy for the masses. Ignore swipes and wipes and triple-bypass taps, it's not even needed, and again, it's there to sell magic trackpads. But saying that this effort is without merit is a tad unfair, no?
Actually versioning has not been a problem in software development for decades now :-)
I agree there is certainly some merit to bake versioning into the OS, the problem simply is that apples approach is broken while others like Eclipse Idea Netbeans and whatever Ide which has versioning and a local version history has done it right for 10 years , apple just should have copied their mechanisms instead of reverting to something between RCSs enforced locking and taking the control entirely away from the users. (Both absolute antipatterns modern revision control systems have gotten rid of years ago)
like Eclipse Idea Netbeans and whatever Ide which has versioning and a local version history has done it right for 10 years , apple just should have copied their mechanisms instead of reverting to something between RCSs enforced locking and taking the control entirely away from the users. (Both absolute antipatterns modern revision control systems have gotten rid of years ago)
Ha, I bet u are right there! I left software dev just about the time netbeans came into play, but have buds there that are very happy with code development these days vs. the olden days (Smalltalk/VisualAge). I guess Apple has a tough job: bringing the rigors of a structured development environment to sloppy creative people. FCPX is like that now with project/event concept, and from what I hear, folks are not happy there either (well, at least not the oldfollk). Anyway, thx for bringing a more indepth pov to the conversation!
And yet you make the assumption that its 95% of the user base that currently has lion that are miserable.
Judging a userbase by this forum, isn't ideal.
I would say that its the same percentage as ever with new change - the very vocal minority - that are unhappy with the changes and are doing nothing to change it (I would guess that out of this entire thread, only one or two people have submitted official feedback/bug reports, or are prepared to debate this logically) and the rest are merely getting up on a soap box to expess their displeasure.
I plan to sit down and spend some time experiementing with versioning soon, and yes it does need a lot of work. But they took the iOS implementation of it which does work on iOS - but isn't flexible enough when you get to a full fledged OS and expect users to be able to go back through the versions.
As mentioned in previous post:
And, as other people have mentioned:
Tell Apple about it here: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html
I have pleaded my case. I also have given Apple positive formal feedback when they have done things well. I think the notion of the vocal minority is downplayed in the comment above though. The vocal minority can typically be extrapolated to a representative base.
As far as versioning working great on IOS, great - to me it is again the thought process, or lack there of, that brought Apple to including it in lion and then it is the simply flawed implementation. The truth is apple will either fix it, or fail. This doesn't necessarily mean removing it, just fixing it so as not to disrupt workflows for those who don't need them disrupted.
But, like a bad liver, the damage has already been done. Now very tricky to re-instill faith that Apple will actually be around to listen to users when needed.
I am a scientist and also embed microscopy images and video and have had keynote freeze for several minutes everytime I make a change to a presentation. It was so annoying that I completely uninstalled iWork (including deletion of the system and user library application support files) and reinstalled a fresh copy that I am not updating to eliminate the autosave feature. There should be a popup that asks if you want to disable autosave whenever you open a file larger than a few hundred MB otherwise the app is rendered almost completely useless. What is sad is the updates prior it iWork Update 6 are no longer available so I am stuck without the bug fixes already patched...
Currently Being ModeratedAug 1, 2011 7:57 AM (in response to lucafrombrooklyn)
it's not often that I feel strongly enough to put those feelings in writing, but since having installed Lion a week ago, I have been struggling with the question of whether or not to revert to SL, knowing that if I do, it is unlikely to be any time soon that I install Lion again. The last time Apple annoyed me this much was when they first introduced OS X and trashed overnight the knowledge and experience I had gathered with Systems 6 through 9.
After an unenjoyable and ill-advised excursion with Windows, I came back into the fold with Leopard, and duly came to the conclusion that FOR ME and my choices about how I like to work, Snow Leopard is well nigh an ideal OS.
Conscious that the last thing I want is to end up frozen in an unsupported and futureless Snow Leopard time-warp, it is still very difficult to decide to persist with Lion, when so far I have found almost nothing positive in the changes implemented - especially when every day of carrying out work in Lion makes it more difficult to go back to SL if that does really end up being my decision.
I have sent Apple the following feedback which summarises my overall issues with Lion, but reading this string has made me wonder whether I should go back to SL right now before too many of my documents and image files end up being irretrievably damaged by Lion's automation to make it possible?
Nanny State Software
As a committed Mac user since the 1980's I am very used to change and understand Apple's culture of driving new ideas forward.
However, I have been a committed Mac user for all these years because, whatever the changes Apple has introduced, there have always been sufficient options in the OS to allow me to configure my Mac the way I want it to be.
For the first time, OS X Lion does not allow me the options to do this. Consequently I no longer feel that it is MY Mac - it's APPLE's Mac, and the problem is that that's not the Mac I want!
I don't mind that things like Launchpad have been added because for everyone (like me) who finds it entirely useless, there will be someone who uses it constantly. The point is I have the choice whether or not to use it (I have have chosen to delete it entirely from my system).
HOWEVER I do NOT appear to have a similar choice with many other aspects of Lion.
I can think of no circumstances in which I would ever want to use Autosave & Versions and yet there is apparently no way to switch them off. Autosave just annoys me by stopping me from typing whilst it decides to do something I neither want nor need it to in a distressingly Windows-like way.
What is required is a preference option set (ideally for every application) that gives the user the choices 'Always Autosave', 'Never Autosave' or 'Ask when creating New Document'. By all means have it set to 'Always' by default for the inexperienced and the lazy, but give the rest of us the choice.
I do not want my system to resume the previous state when I reboot, but now I have to perform an extra task every time I shut down to make that choice (it already takes much longer to boot and shutdown than SL) - please give me a toggle that means I only have to tick it if I DO want it to resume/restore - again, give me the CHOICE!
Mission Control is OK - but it's a pale & limited approximation of Spaces. Why can't I drag windows in BOTH directions to and FROM desktops as I could in Spaces??
Preview now makes decisions about my files that I do not want it to, and editing PDF's together which used to be simple and straightforward, is now a marathon exercise in confusion, locked files, unwanted versions and confusing duplicates.
In short you have turned the best OS on the planet into Nanny State Software that makes decisions about how I must use my machine by assuming incorrectly that Apple Knows What's Best For Me.
I don't doubt that there will be those who love that they no longer have to take responsibility for their own workflow and data, but please give those of us who prefer to have control of our own lives and work the option to switch all this stuff off if we wish to.
I have resisted the very powerful temptation to upgrade back to Snow Leopard simply because that had none of these problems. However, there is no doubt that that will only ever be a temporary solution, and that eventually the only choice will be between Lion or stagnation.
Take a look at the product ranges of Canon & Nikon - two companies who really understand this. At the 'entry' level of their DSLR ranges, their relatively cheap cameras bristle with auto modes and 'scene settings' for just about everything that really do mean that the camera does everything for the user (note 'user' not 'photographer').
Their mid-range products have the semi-automatic and full manual modes that competent photographers demand and far fewer or no amateurish programme & 'scenes' modes and the like.
The top-end pro models have only the controls necessary to give the decision-making photographer full and flexible control over incredibly powerful machines.
All have superb auto-focus facilities - BUT without exception this can be turned OFF if the photographer decides it is appropriate.
So PLEASE don't turn the Mac into some feeble HappySnaps auto-only machine (save that for iPhones & iPads) and put some "OFF" switches into Lion 10.7.1 very quickly. Please don't leave those of us who prefer to have independent choices and control in our lives reminiscing about the days when Apple used to make software for grown-ups.
If you (or anyone else) has comments or questions about Lion, submit feedback to Apple. Either use the feedback page (http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html), or, if you are a developer, submit bugs. Posting these long commentaries maybe be useful for discussion sake, but the only way to actually influence Apple directly is to either submit feedback or report bugs.
As I said in my post - I have submitted that feedback, and copied it here in the hope that it encourages others to do so.
The camera analagy is close to my heart, but I hope it highlights that all 'high-tech' products have a wide range of potential users that need to be catered for. By all means let's cater for new-comers and the inexperienced but not at the cost of dumbing down a system to a point where it ceases to be of use to more experienced users.
Please everyone - tell Apple what you think!
I have just sent some more feedback on this issue
I like to look/try thingss out on my photos in Preview, as such I NEVER want to save what I have done
I now have to remember to revert to saved and the click on last opened
auto saving needs to be an option, I dont trust some of these apps now as they save things I do not want saving
OK I've send a request to Apple, using the link posted above by topher 1078, asking for the Autosave function to be made optional. Everyone else in here - please do likewise. It only takes a few seconds of your time.
Currently Being ModeratedAug 1, 2011 11:33 AM (in response to lucafrombrooklyn)
As far as I have read, it cannot be disabled.
I left a feedback to Apple saying I would much appreciate the option to disable it permanently. I read it caused serius problems to some people and I made some tests myself.
The latest test shows a pages document of 48KB and a history/backup of 3 Megs. Should I expect if I work hard with Keynote on 10-15 Megs Docs to have backups of 200MB???
Thanks for your kind words Papalapapp!
Good to see people sending Apple feedback - it's the only way to influence their decisions.
I'll be sending them some more very soon!
I've been reading other threads - mostly about annoyances over changes in Lion, many of which I agree with but which I could live with until Apple or an independent developer comes up with a fix because they really aren't important enough to be deal breakers (for me).
However none are as important as this thread which I have re-read from the top, and which eventually has caused me to decide to revert to Snow Leopard until Apple puts right the one thing that really is a deal breaker for me.
Any operating system that puts my data and files at unnecessary risk - either by making uncontrollable automated decisions or simply by confusing me with unintuitive processes - is not tolerable.
The issue for me come down simply to one of trust - I trusted myself and Snow Leopard (together with Time Machine and my back-up regime) to create, save and archive the files with which I earn my living. If I made an error, then I had Time Machine and a recent back-up clone to help me out of whatever hole I had dug for myself.
However I do not trust Lion to help me do the same thing. Not only does it make unilateral decisions about what and how to save, it has to my certain knowledge removed at least one file from my system altogether! In Snow Leopard I kept several folders and system-related files in my User Library (note MY User Library not Snow Leopard's!), including a TextEdit file containing all my software licence keys. After the 'upgrade' to Lion, I discovered that Lion had unilaterally decided that this file was somehow unsuitable for inclusion in what Lion seems to think is its exclusive (and hidden!) preserve and that file simply disappeared - it didn't get put in a folder somewhere else (at least nowhere that I or Spotlight can find it), it simply disappeared. My back-up regime rescued the day without problem, but I have yet to work out what other files may have suffered the same fate.
I have already narrowly avoided overwriting important PDF files whilst trying to carry out what used to be simple edits in Preview, and I cannot risk not having projects archived exactly the way I need them to be.
Add to this the sundry minor annoyances of Lion including the fact that as Papalapapp pointed out much earlier in this thread that Autosave stops me typing into Numbers whenever it becomes the active app again whilst it performs an unwanted and unnecessary re-save of a large file, it is with great sadness and a good deal of reluctance that I have decided to revert to Snow Leopard until Apple comes up with replacement that really is an improvement.
But I'll be sure to tell Apple I have done so and why.