Q: How to disable Versions completely

etresoft wrote:

 

I don't understand your question.

That's too bad. I thought my question was very clear. Let's try it again.

I often work on a text file someone has sent me, highlighting all the changes as I make them.

I then send this file back, leaving the changes highlighted so that the other party can see them.

What does Versioning/Autosaving do to that?

etresoft is right that Versions are not carried over when you duplicate a document. It's not actually possible for this to happen, because the document history is not contained in the file itself, and copying the file breaks all links to the documentrevisions folder where the version history is stored.

I think what Tom's talking about is 'track changes' (in Word and Pages). This is a different feature and has nothing to do with Versions. If you turn it on, editing history and comments will be saved in the current copy and any duplicate copy.

Tom in London wrote:

 

I often work on a text file someone has sent me, highlighting all the changes as I make them.

 

I then send this file back, leaving the changes highlighted so that the other party can see them.

 

What does Versioning/Autosaving do to that?

softwater wrote:

 

I think what Tom's talking about is 'track changes' (in Word and Pages). This is a different feature and has nothing to do with Versions. If you turn it on, editing history and comments will be saved in the current copy and any duplicate copy.

 

OK. I get it.

I think a little background is in order. The "comparison" feature in Versions is pretty crude. You just get two previews of the pages. For rich text documents like Word and Pages, this is pretty much the state of the art. If you are working in plain text, there are sophisticated version comparison tools like Apple's FileMerge (AKA opendiff). This tool give you a very nice, graphical display of the changes from one version of a file to another. You can even pick and choose the changes you want to include in a merged copy. There is no similar tool for rich text programs like Word and Pages. Track Changes is very useful, but from a different perspective. It isn't graphical at all. Track Changes in Pages seems like a copy of how Word does it. Apple needs to do better than that. I hope that one day Apple or Microsoft will be able to make a version compare tool that works as well as the traditional text tools. Versions in MacOS X is one piece of that puzzle. The rest is still to come.

Track changes in Pages is a copy of MS Office. The reason is to have compatability in the ability to edit track-changes documents. Someone sends you a Word doc with changes, you can open it in Pages and see the changes and vice versa.

Any versioning system will likely have to continue to allow this kind of compatability.

Still a n00b poster, but not a new Mac user.

I'll shift this argument a bit.

I HATE Versions and Auto-Saving, and here's why. For decades now, I've developed a Command-S reflex as I work. I don't even think about it anymore, it just happens. So when I'm working in Keynote and hit Command-S, I will get a Spinning Beachball of Pain for sometimes forty seconds.  This is 40 seconds I CAN NOT WORK because the machine is not saving my document, it's creating a new version.

Sure, creating versions is no big deal in a paltry text document. But do anything in a media rich program like Keynote in high resolutions and you end up with huge files. So when I was creating a presentation yesterday, I was constantly getting the SBP.

Just TRY to be creative in between red lights. I challenge you.

Next: Save As...

I will sometimes fork my own work. I'll be at say, version 5 and decide to head off in one direction. To keep track of this, I Save As version 5B.  And I'll work until I hit the wall on that direction, and go back to version 5 and continue on using whole numbers on my original path.

Sure, it seems wonky to you perhaps but it works really well for me.  And for years, I've been able to do this without complaint from the operating system.

But now, I have to Duplicate, then save that, then deal with the duplicate's Versions?

It's broken a system of mine by eliminating the simple file management capabilites.

Microsoft has tried to "help" its users, too. That kind of help is why I use Macs. And now Lion has forced me to abandon common practice. For what? "Ease of Use?" What's so easy about wading through versions that are sometimes impossible to tell apart, deal with the complete cratering of performance and usability?

To quote Jayne Cobb: "Where does that get fun?"

IMHO, Apple has to stop forcing smart people to work like stupid people.

I hate to say this, but perhaps Apple needs to fork Lion and offer a "Lion Pro" for creatives. Those who know how to maintain back-ups, have their own versioning system, and demand top performance.

ChrisEsch wrote: everything he wrote

Chris- you've described it perfectly. You're far from being the only creative who works that way. I work that way all the time and I just can't see how I could ever function with Lion. Which is why I've gone back (I hope temporarily) to Snow Leopard.

ChrisEsch wrote:

 

I HATE Versions and Auto-Saving, and here's why. For decades now, I've developed a Command-S reflex as I work. I don't even think about it anymore, it just happens. So when I'm working in Keynote and hit Command-S, I will get a Spinning Beachball of Pain for sometimes forty seconds.  This is 40 seconds I CAN NOT WORK because the machine is not saving my document, it's creating a new version.

If you give it a try, you will find you like not having to save constantly. I'm now using Pages more and more just becase I don't have to save anymore. It is like switching to an automatic transmission after driving a manual for years. You may still try to clutch every now and then, but you'll get over it.

But now, I have to Duplicate, then save that, then deal with the duplicate's Versions?

No! You don't. Just duplicate and keep working. There is no need to save it unless you decide you want to keep it under a new name. If you quit Keynote and restart, it will still be there.

What's so easy about wading through versions that are sometimes impossible to tell apart, deal with the complete cratering of performance and usability?

That is only because you are still trying to save it constantly. Stop saving and all the versions and performance problems will go away.

IMHO, Apple has to stop forcing smart people to work like stupid people.

Why am I stupid because I'm not waiting time saving versions I don't want?

I hate to say this, but perhaps Apple needs to fork Lion and offer a "Lion Pro" for creatives. Those who know how to maintain back-ups, have their own versioning system, and demand top performance.

Apple has found it easier to sell advanced software to adaptable people than adapt software to inflexible people.

If you give it a try, you will find you like not having to save constantly. I'm now using Pages more and more just becase I don't have to save anymore. It is like switching to an automatic transmission after driving a manual for years. You may still try to clutch every now and then, but you'll get over it.

Really, Etresoft? Saving your work has been a major problem that kept you from using Pages? Somehow, I doubt that autosaving has anything to do with it.I mean, what did you use before Pages? Didn't you save in that program you used to use? Haven't you already gotten a workflow that includes saving an organizing?

Look, not being able to control when I save is taking power AWAY from the user. And Macs have always been about empowering the user.

No! You don't. Just duplicate and keep working. There is no need to save it unless you decide you want to keep it under a new name. If you quit Keynote and restart, it will still be there.

I don't work that way. Many people don't work that way. People can drink as much of the Kool-Aid as they like, but let me manage my files the way I've designed. I don't need to deal with November 2011 being a new schema and different than the past 15 years.

That is only because you are still trying to save it constantly. Stop saving and all the versions and performance problems will go away.

It's like breathing. Stopping isn't an option especially since most of my other programs *don't* autosave yet. So I've got one foot on the boat, one foot on the dock and I am trying to do business and not fall in the lake.

Why am I stupid because I'm not waiting time saving versions I don't want?

No direct offense intended. But: why should I, as a long-time Apple user, owner and purchaser, have to completely dismantle my data management system because millions of new Apple customers think that iOS is the only way to work with documents? I've adapted to new document types, new programs and new technology. Autosave and Versions are none of those things. They are the usurping of control.

Apple has found it easier to sell advanced software to adaptable people than adapt software to inflexible people.

Nice try. There's no adaption needed...Command-S and Save As... have been around since the earliest versions of GUI-based operating systems. There's nothing "advanced" about Auto-Saving and Versions. The advance has been on control, and Apple has crossed the line here and in doing so has introduced a huge penalty to those who've been doing this for years and even today have to work on other operating systems where the only saving grace has been that there has been *some* consistency in how files are saved and created.

If auto-saving and versions work for you, fine. But don't belittle those who don't want Apple to dictate their workflow.

Look, not being able to control when I save is taking power AWAY from the user. And Macs have always been about empowering the user.

 

My only and logical point here is:

I do not want any machine taking over/away a process which should be mine alone: MY decision as to how/what/when I want to do something (or not). No debate necessary:  it should be up to the individual. And the individual should be able to control the machine - not a built-in process decided upon by another individual who has no right to dictate to me - period.

Options are good - everyone has a choice to set it up as they wish.

babowa wrote:

I do not want any machine taking over/away a process which should be mine alone: MY decision as to how/what/when I want to do something (or not).

Precisely, and for me this is a legal matter.

I'm not a lawyer, but I hope the files I create are my property and that what I do with them is my business, not Apple's or anyone else's.

That includes me deciding what to save and when.

That also includes my right to be stupid and forget to save my work. That's my problem.

I don't want Apple interfering with my property, without my authorisation.

Did I authorise Apple to do that when I accepted the End User Agreement?

Any legal eagles in here? I mean, there must be a lot of lawyers who use Macs and are worried about this.

Let me get this straight. You want to sue Apple for taking away your right to lose your work because you forgot to save? Come to think of it, MacOS X doesn't crash nearly as much as System 7.5.3 did. Do we need a class action lawsuit for that too?

ChrisEsch wrote:

 

Really, Etresoft? Saving your work has been a major problem that kept you from using Pages? Somehow, I doubt that autosaving has anything to do with it.I mean, what did you use before Pages? Didn't you save in that program you used to use? Haven't you already gotten a workflow that includes saving an organizing?

I used to and still use Word. Saving isn't a problem but not having to save is cool new feature.

Look, not being able to control when I save is taking power AWAY from the user.

Utter nonsense. You are upset because Apple is taking away your right to avoid data loss? If you really want to, you can always turn off Time Machine and delete an important file you were working on. That should restore your data loss functionality that Apple has so callously stripped away from you.

I don't work that way. Many people don't work that way. People can drink as much of the Kool-Aid as they like,

Kool-Aid? I'm rapidly losing interest here.

It's like breathing. Stopping isn't an option especially since most of my other programs *don't* autosave yet. So I've got one foot on the boat, one foot on the dock and I am trying to do business and not fall in the lake.

Photoshop Elements has non-standard keyboard shortcuts. It is annoying when I try to hide it and it won't go away. I can, and do, try to use other programs when possible. It certainly doesn't render me paralyzed with anxiety about whether or not I can hide any particular application.

No direct offense intended. But: why should I, as a long-time Apple user, owner and purchaser, have to completely dismantle my data management system because millions of new Apple customers think that iOS is the only way to work with documents? I've adapted to new document types, new programs and new technology. Autosave and Versions are none of those things. They are the usurping of control.

Yet more nonsense. What are the chances you would go from Kool-Aid to iOS-bashing? 97%?

If auto-saving and versions work for you, fine. But don't belittle those who don't want Apple to dictate their workflow.

Too late. Apple doesn't dictate your workflow. You can work in Windows or Linux however you want. If Linux doesn't work the way you want, you can even go in and change it. You can't do that with a Mac. If you want freedom, run, don't walk to it.

etresoft wrote:

 

Let me get this straight.

Yeah, this is the second time in this thread that you've failed to understand what I wrote. Try reading it again.

I have no intention of suing Apple. Nor did I say that I would.

And yes, if course I am responsible for saving my work. I'm glad you understood that part and that you agree.

That's me, not Apple.

Deleted by user

Having failed to find a solution to this particular issue I've personally decided to go back to Snow Leopard when I replace my hard drive with an SSD in the new year. Most people I know who don't like, specifically, autosave - they've not got used to it and are still unhappy with it. Some have already returned to Snow Leopard. I'll miss being able to resize a window from any edge, and I'll miss proper address space layout randomisation. But I'll be getting a machine that behaves as I want it to. I mean, I just decomissioned a machine that ran for 10 years on Windows XP. Snow Leopard is much better than XP and by the time I submit to another hardware upgrade in (hopefully) 5 years time either the issue will have been dealt with to my satisfaction, or I'll be moving on to Linux instead if Snow Leopard is no longer viable.

My point when I discuss this with people who like Autosave/Versions is twofold.

First and foremost, although I currently do my day job from an iMac (and have used Macs exclusively for over 4 years away from work), I am constantly in and out of Windows and various flavours of Linux. The things I least get on with are those that Apple has decided in this release should work differently to the accepted norm. Scrolling - I could turn off the arrogant "natural" direction and turn back on the "industry standard" direction.

So Apple make it harder for me to work efficiently because a basic system behaviour, which has been prevalent in computers since the year dot, they decide to modify. I can deal with that right up to the point they say "oh, and you can't turn this off".

I'm not saying they shouldn't think outside the box. I'm saying they should give people a choice. I don't want autosave. I don't want to have to explain to my wife, and my kids, that they now have to be really careful about what they do with their files. They also use Macs at home but must be able to drive Windows machines at work or school. I'm not sure of the Mac marketshare in the USA but worldwide it is < 7%, so most people who use a Mac at home will be using a Windows PC at work.

Second, when I accidentally modify a file and then pass it on (having not been prompted to save, and not knowing about the modification): copy it onto a memory stick or send it vial email, or upload it to one of the cloud services I use -  I'm passing on the wrong file; a corrupt file if you will. It isn't my file. It is Apple's opinion of what my file should look like.

I'm with Tom in that Apple are wrong to force users down this route. They're trying to make OS X more like iOS and that isn't going down well with me. I had one iPhone. It was good. But I didn't want to get locked in to Apple's walled garden and I didn't like the lack of freedom when it came to installing applications. If you want to wrap people in cotton wool, well fine. But I want the ability to run with scissors, if you will, being aware of the risks. Well, using OS X without autosave is more akin to running without knee pads. Something we all do, all the time. We all know the risks of falling over...

I use OS X because it gives me all the advantages of using a Unix-based operating system, with the added bonus of a really well-executed GUI layer. I want choice, flexibility and performance. Snow Leopard provided all of those in spades. Lion falls down on one or two key points.

Frankly, the fact that debate on this specific feature is still going on, all over the web and in Mac-using offices around the world - it shows that Apple has got it wrong. By all means keep autosave and versions. But give us the option to turn it off. Globally. Thank you.