Q: How to disable Versions completely
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Nov 9, 2011 12:19 AMby Neil from Oz,Tom in London wrote:
Neil from Oz wrote:
what Apple find you responsible for in using their software
I'm more interested in what I find Apple responsible for in relation to my property. Any file I create, at the point at which I create it, is my property.
So you didn't read the terms and conditions of any of the OSX's you have installed. Didn't think so, and may pay to do this before sprouting nonsense about sueing Apple and other such silly statements. Do have a read to what you agreed to and what rights you abandoned by deciding to use their software.
Cheers
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Nov 9, 2011 12:24 AMby Tom in London,Neil from Oz wrote:
So you didn't read the terms and conditions of any of the OSX's you have installed. Didn't think so, and may pay to do this before sprouting nonsense about sueing Apple
You need to be careful what you write. I have not at any point suggested or implied that I have any intention of suing (not "sueing") anyone. I don't know anyone called Sue.
Who owns your files?
You?
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Nov 9, 2011 12:37 AMby Neil from Oz,Tom in London wrote:
I don't want Apple interfering with my property, without my authorisation.
Did I authorise Apple to do that when I accepted the End User Agreement?
Any legal eagles in here? I mean, there must be a lot of lawyers who use Macs and are worried about this.
Seriously, Tom, your arguement is so flawed, it is without foundation. Your mention of legal action was deleted, as it should have been. And for someone who gave up using Lion so early in the piece and downgraded to Snow Leopard, you certainly have an extremely intricate knowledge of Lion 10.7.2 to share with the world, on top of your outstanding vocabulary skills and expert legal knowledge.
Anyhow, enough time wasted on this subject, off to learn some more of the marvels included in Lion 10.7.2 You really should try it. lol
Chers and goodluck
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Nov 9, 2011 12:49 AMby Tom in London,Neil from Oz wrote:
Your mention of legal action was deleted
I have not, at any point, mentioned legal action or deleted any reference thereto, since no such references have ever been made by me. As I say, you need to be careful what you write especially at this time of night (where you are).
I am currently running Lion 10.7.2 on another computer as a test. It contains no features I would characterise as "marvels".
I am not using, and could not use Lion for any serious professional purpose.
Who owns your files?
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Nov 9, 2011 6:08 AMby etresoft,Whose files??? Our files!!! OCUPPY APPLE!!!!!! AUX BARRICADES!!!!!
Of course you implied legal action - asking for legal experts to question Apple's actions.
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose - end of story. Your continued use of Lion is indicative of your consent.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:16 AMby Tom in London,etresoft wrote:
Of course you implied legal action - asking for legal experts to question Apple's actions.
I did neither. I did not (a) imply that I intended or wished others to undertake any form of legal action (b) ask for any legal expert to question any of Apple's actions.
You probably went to school and you probably think you know how to read, but it appears you don't know how to read attentively and without letting your own associative processes influence your understanding of what you're reading.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:17 AMby Tom in London,softwater wrote:
etresoft wrote:
Of course you implied legal action - asking for legal experts to question Apple's actions.
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose...
What utter nonsense.
Indeed.
So, folks: who owns the files you create? If your boss, or your wife, or anyone, sends you a file, who has the right to make changes to it and save those changes?
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Nov 9, 2011 7:29 AMby DChord568,I had a full reply to this latest bit of nonsense prepared last night, and just before posting it I fell victim to one of Lion's "wonderful" new features.
A word to the wise...if you have the option checked in mouse preferences to move from page to page in a document when you swipe right or left, you will lose any content you've entered into a form (such as this reply form) on a website. Simply gone forever. Nice. I wasn't even doing this with intent...it was just a stray lateral movement across my "Magic" Mouse (which I've come to hate).
etresoft wrote:
Your translation is incorrect. What I said is pretty much all I can say without language that most people would find...unproductive.
How unfortunate for you that you have such a paucity of language skills. But then, it goes along with your pauctiy of thought. My translation has proven to be right on the money.
Just because one software developer wants to do extra work doesn't mean that Apple should impose that requirement on all developers. Adding full Lion support is optional. If it is too difficult, developers won't support it. Apple's goal is to make the system as easy as possible to use and develop for.
Well at least you're consistent, in that you stand up for the rights of lazy developers as well as lazy Mac users. The fact that a one-man shop found a way — and very shortly after Lion was released, as I recall — to give users of his software the option to bypass Auto Save would indicate that it must not be "too difficult" after all, and that he found the dreaded "extra work" very much worth doing for the sake of keeping 100 percent of his customers happy.
If individual users want to make their lives more difficult, they are free to do so. Thorsten Lemke can do extra work if he wants. If you want to do extra work, you can use old software such as Snow Leopard, Windows, or Linux.
Are you really this dense? In one very important sense, it is Lion that has made my life "more difficult," with the elimination of Save As. I didn't find anything about working in Snow Leopard and all of its predecessors to be "more difficult."
The difference is, I am not "free to" eliminate the more difficult working conditions that Lion imposes. And once again, I am not alone. If you want to keep burying your head in the sand and failing to acknowledge that many other Mac users share my view, go right ahead.
But please spare us the "well then, just don't use Lion" mantra, as if doing so means everyone can now walk away from this issue, dust off their hands and declare "problem solved." You know full well that a time will come when previous systems will become obsolete, just as they always have. That time has already come for purchasers of new Macs.
No one has ever disputed my obvious claim that the new saving paradigm Lion introduces is the single most fundamental change in the way we use our Macs to ever come down the pike. Despite your determined head in the sand, the problems it imposes have been clearly and profusely documented. The logical way forward here is to provide the option to remain with the saving paradigm that has served millions of Mac users perfectly well for the last 27 years.
Do this, and 100 percent of the user base is happy. So this leaves only your poor, beleaguered developers. Until you can provide evidence that legions of Mac software developers will desert the platform rather than having to do a little extra coding, your argument is extremely weak.
You cannot claim to be under the control of an optional system.
It took me a while to figure out what you mean by this. I'm guessing this is another tired "you don't have to use it" argument. But if I do choose to use any consumer product, I can certainly evaluate what degree of control is granted to me in the course of using it, and comment on this aspect of its performance.
And again, the fact is that if I buy a new Mac (something nearly 100 percent of the Mac user base will inevitably have to do at some point), Lion is not "optional." So the next choice the user has is to desert the platform altogether. The thought of that happening apparently doesn't trouble you at all...but it troubles me.
It is Apple's software. You, as a licensee, have no right to tell Apple what to do with its property.
I have every right to tell Apple what I would like them to do with their property. And they have every right not to listen to me.
What, exactly, is your problem with what I and others are doing in talking about our dissatisfaction with certain aspects of Lion? If it really bothers you that much, then why don't you follow your own advice and decline further participation here?
All you can do is refuse to pay for new licenses. If enough people do that, then Apple might make a change to get more customers. Apple's focus, however, is more about making great products than attracting the maximum number of customers.
I'd sure love for you to find me a quote from in Apple executive in which he or she says "We're not interested in attracting the maximum number of customers for our products."
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Nov 9, 2011 7:24 AMby SteveKir,etresoft wrote:
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose - end of story. Your continued use of Lion is indicative of your consent.
Yes, you are correct. Consent, yes, but enthusiastic consent as in past decades? There is more to a successful business than just legality. Apple can insist on what it likes, but if it makes what I think is a significant proportion of customers unhappy (some angry), that's not a wise way to behave. My iMac cost almost 2 1/2 times what a comparable (in power) Windows machine would have cost. That's a high premium and I (and others) have to balance that against a Lion that (for many) has significant faults. It's my choice. I will have to think carefully (for the first time in decades) the next time I re-equip.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:27 AMby DChord568,Tom in London wrote:
softwater wrote:
etresoft wrote:
Of course you implied legal action - asking for legal experts to question Apple's actions.
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose...
What utter nonsense.
Indeed.
So, folks: who owns the files you create? If your boss, or your wife, or anyone, sends you a file, who has the right to make changes to it and save those changes?
Notice the difficulty you're having in getting anyone to provide a straight answer to this question, Tom?
It's very typical of the modus operandi of many here, who simply clam up whenever an argument is presented that makes them uncomfortable.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:34 AMby ChrisEsch,etresoft wrote:
Whose files??? Our files!!! OCUPPY APPLE!!!!!! AUX BARRICADES!!!!!
Of course you implied legal action - asking for legal experts to question Apple's actions.
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose - end of story. Your continued use of Lion is indicative of your consent.
Gentlemen...GENTLEMEN! Let's not lose focus on our original discussion here.
As I've watched this debate unfold, I've seen two distinct camps emerge.
There are those, such as etresoft, who seem to think that because a use agrees to the Lion license (a licence generally used to protect the software publisher from liability and establish their code ownership rights) that they have also granted Apple the right to manage a user's work "for their own good." In a sense, the same way a Socialist government handles the rights of its citizens.
The other camp feels that Apple gives users the tools to create whatever they wish as long as they respect that the tools are Apple's and the user agrees to respect Apple's owership and terms about the software itself.
To demonstrate this concept: Say you went to a home improvement store and bought BuildMaster Lumber, a BuildMaster Hammer and a box of BuildMaster Nails. Before using them, you had to agree to the terms of service. You do this, and proceed build a house.
After you build the house, can BuildMaster show up on your doorstep and tell you that you can't use nails to hold the paneling to the wall, only to build the frame?
Of course not.
And Apple has no right, expressed or implied, to tell you how to work or make copies of your work. Their license establishes ownership of the code and the terms on which that code is used. NOT ownership or control of content created using that code.
etresoft, you said:
...When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose...
Would you be able to show us where we, as licensees, agreed to this? I doubt you can, as nowhere in the licence could they put this without running afoul of user's copy rights.
Now. Has anyone seen anything on how I could disable auto-save and versioning?
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Nov 9, 2011 7:38 AMby softwater,SteveKir wrote:
etresoft wrote:
When you agree to the Lion license, you agree to let Apple manage your files in the manner that they choose - end of story. Your continued use of Lion is indicative of your consent.
Yes, you are correct.
No, he's not. And if you think he is, you are being seriously misled. There is NOTHING stated or implied in the EULA that says Apple has any rights over managing your files, and nor could there be without contravening more laws that even an amateur like myself could care to count.
Drop this silly argument and get back to the point.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:42 AMby Philly_Phan,ChrisEsch wrote:
...they have also granted Apple the right to manage a user's work "for their own good." In a sense, the same way a Socialist government handles the rights of its citizens.
Unbelievable. If you don't like the way that the product operates, vote with your wallet and buy another product. Perhaps you are unaware but there is no law that requires you to use the Lion OS and, in fact, there is no law that requires you to use Apple products at all.
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Nov 9, 2011 7:44 AMby softwater,ChrisEsch wrote:
Now. Has anyone seen anything on how I could disable auto-save and versioning?
It's an option in the code. It depends on the developer as to whether they enable the turning off of these features. Apple's own programs do not, and unless Apple change their mind (I suspect this latter will occur somewhere around 10.7.6...), the answer is 'no'. You can try messing with the documentrevisions file, but you'll soon find it causes you more trouble than its worth. Preview, Textedit, Pages, etc will keep on trying to autosave, and if you mess with the doc revisions folder, Lion will just make a new one.
There are currently two options: live with it and don't use autosave/Version enable apps (not that hard at present), or revert to Snow Leopard. Regarding the first option, others have pointed out that some older, pre-autosave releases of Apple s/w will still run on Lion. I can't recall the details, but 'search' is your friend...
