Previous 1 12 13 14 15 16 Next 264 Replies Latest reply: Oct 27, 2013 10:01 AM by Csound1 Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • linda2009 Level 1 Level 1

    What I am waiting to find out is what happens to all those versions of the document if you choose not to save it?  Do they get deleted?  Or, do they just keep adding up and taking up disk space?


    I'd rather have the choice to use that hard drive space for what I want to use it for, not for versions of my file that I've played around with, but don't want to save, or want to save with a new name.


    Thing is, I just want to also turn off Versions.  It sounds extremely dangerous with Preview - I've heard of images that are opened and slightly changed get saved and then when you close it (without saving), you've got a new image that you didn't want!!  That sounds like a problem not an improvement!!


    Others have said that some programs that use large files that change frequently, and the application is taking too long to save the versions!!


    Anyway, I know it's all been said before, but I just can't see the logic in it.  I have sent feedback to Apple for all the applications and OS, too.


    Oh and, what's logic behind giving the new Duplicate an easier keystroke??!!  Save As has been around a lot longer and Duplicate stole it's keystroke -  NOT FAIR!!


    Well, we got to keep telling them how hard it is to work with this stuff so they can quit trying to make our desktops into iPads and iPhones!!

  • PeterBreis0807 Level 7 Level 7



    Preview which has had a long running set of problems, all of Apple's creation, has become a right mess in Lion as you have pointed out.


    I actually keep a separate Leopard installation just to fix this and many other problems.


    Quicktime in Lion for example does not do simple saves from .flv files to .mov anymore, it exports disregarding the true resolution, which can massively increse the file size as well as ruining it. It takes forever to do the export as well.


    Honestly I can't see where the OSX programmers are going with all this and would love to take a cricket bat to their heads to wake them out of their pointless meddling, that is just adding to the confusion not reducing it for anyone, let alone the Newbies.



  • Kees de Wit Level 1 Level 1

    If it wasn't for iCloud's f-ing requirement to run Lion, I would've stayed with Snow Leopard.

    For me this has meant changing some of the tools I use.

    I went back to using MS Office because of the mess that is auto-save and versions, and I use Acrobat for pdf and GraphicConverter for other image files.

    This is not ideal, and having a dialog popup to confirm my changes, the way Mountain Lion apparantly is going to reintroduce will go a long way to restore some sanity to my workflow.

    Who knows, maybe they'll even make (the imo useless) spaces optional, so we can have enough room to show all windows in Mission Control


    as far as the shortcuts go, I'm going to assume we will still be able to change those using the keyboard preference pane, the way we can now.

  • Dale Gillard Level 5 Level 5

    What I am waiting to find out is what happens to all those versions of the document if you choose not to save it?  Do they get deleted?  Or, do they just keep adding up and taking up disk space?


    Try a Google search using the phrase "Lion Versions".



    "OS X Lion saves only the information that has changed since the last version, making efficient use of space on your hard drive. OS X Lion manages the version history of a document, keeping hourly versions for a day, daily versions for a month, and weekly versions for all previous months."


    Thing is, I just want to also turn off Versions.  It sounds extremely dangerous with Preview - I've heard of images that are opened and slightly changed get saved and then when you close it (without saving), you've got a new image that you didn't want!!  That sounds like a problem not an improvement!!


    I think you mean you want to turn off Auto Save (which you can't). The Versions feature lets you go back to the original document you started with. If you turned off Versions it would indeed by dangerous.


    Oh and, what's logic behind giving the new Duplicate an easier keystroke??!!  Save As has been around a lot longer and Duplicate stole it's keystroke -  NOT FAIR!!


    I'm not sure what you mean. The File > Duplicate menu command does not have a shortcut key in Pages 4.1 on Lion.

  • linda2009 Level 1 Level 1



    I have Snow Leopard, and use iWork Pages and Numbers a lot so I have been researching Save As, Versions, etc. before I upgrade to any kind of Lion.  I have read in these forums where the information on that page [HT4753] is not completely accurate.  But, as I don't have Lion, I cannot test for myself.


    I want to turn off Auto Save AND Verstions!!  I don't need the OS telling me how to work with my documents.  If I want a "version" of a document, I'll "Save As" another name.  When I close a document, even if I've made no changes or multiple changes, Pages asks me if I want to save and I can Save or Don't Save.  I am told that when you close a document now, the OS automatically Saves that as the document and when you reopen it, it will have all the changes you made.  If you didn't want to save it, now you have to hunt through Versions and try to figure out what Version you want (maybe it was a week ago, how whould you know? If you wanted a version, you would have named it something you could remember).


    I don't need the OS constantly saving my document in the background for me.  (Is Save As the one doing this?)  I make backups on external drives and disks - this is the best practice.  What if the main hard drive failed?  As far as I know, there's not a huge amount of users complaining that they lost their files.  Most save when they need to, and the few that never save and lose learn the lesson of "should have" saved or backed up.  User error not OS error.


    Why would turning off Versions be dangerous??  I don't have Versions on my Snow Leopard and my system and work flow is not dangerous!!  Sure, over the years I have lost document mainly due to some user mishap.  But, I keep backups and usually all was not lost.  Certainly my work flow is not dangerous!!  Goodness, dangerous??


    Mountain Lion put Save As back into the OS.


    Keyboard shortcut for Duplicate

    Quickly duplicate a document using the Command-Shift-S keyboard shortcut. <--- This was the shortcut for SAVE AS for decades!!  Now the new kid on the block gets to keep it.


    Keyboard shortcut for Save As

    Use Command-Shift-Option-S to save a document using a different name and location.  <--- Now the old timer SAVE AS gets a new shortcut, with one extra keystroke added.


    In my personal opinion, all of these changes are to make the desktop more like a mobile device, i.e. iPhone, iPad, etc.  You don't get as much control over your system with these devices.  And, I suppose this way works best for mobile devices.  BUT it does not work for our desktops where we want the control.  I just want the choice to turn off Auto Save, Versions, and the "Restore" functions (where the application automatically opens the last document or system automatically opens the last application - I can set this up now in Snow Leopard if I wanted to using AppleScript or something - I don't choose to.).   I can work better without them.  Just give me the choice!!


    *I have sent Apple feedback and will continue to do so.  I already use GraphicConverter, so I will continue to do so.  Preview is/was nice for quick reading of certain documents, but in Lion, I would be afraid to open one.


    Auto Save and Versions is very confusing [for me] and now requires that I research and test before I get started working with my documents.  And, you can bet I'll keep backups on a detached, external drive while I'm doing this testing!!  LOL!

  • fiddledeedee Level 1 Level 1

    Most Mac users will be thrilled that "Save As" is back.  Eliminating it was an absolute flub.  It does seem, sometimes, that Apple bypasses the testing phase of development in the real world.


    This article explains how to use Versions and Autosave


    AUTOSAVE, a feature I requested for YEARS (that Microsoft has had for years), simply saves your work as you go along, eliminates the need to remember to hit Cmd+S every 5 minutes, that's all.  How is that bad??  (I have lost whole days of work to unexpected power outages and crashes because I became too engrossed in my work to remember to save.  I even set Date & Time Preferences to loudly announce the time every 15 minutes to remind me, and it became white noise after a while.  Autosave will prevent such losses).


    NOTE: In the above article you will read about Lock in the Autosave section.  Lock, a default setting,  locks a document that is older than 2 weeks and prevents editing, unless you manually unlock it first (really annoying).  Lock can be disabled - go to System Preferences>Time Machine>Options, and uncheck Lock documents.


    VERSIONS, independent of autosave and a sefety net, can be very useful when you want to quickly, in one spot, compare different drafts of a document without having to open individually saved versions.  It saves either a version an hour or whenever you choose. 


    The saved versions are easily accessed by clicking on the down arrow when you hover over "- edited" in the title bar.  If you don't see the word "edited" after your title, there are no versions.  (Apple is often not intuitive).  Once you close the document, current versions are lost.


    RESTORE is a huge time-saver that allows you, upon restarting your computer, to continue working seamlessly on the multiple docs you were working on previously.  Before, you had to close your files individually before shutting down, and then reopen them one by one - complicated if you were working on 20 things saved in 20 places.


    For these and many such features, I absolutely agree that there should be the option to disable if desired.


    If using up such minute amounts of disk space or RAM is such a concern, you really need to upgrade!


    It may be that Apple's attempts to improve the user experience sometimes fall short of perfection or fail altogether, such as in the case of eliminating "Save As," but on the other hand, sometimes old dogs are highly resistant to learning new and maybe better tricks!

  • linda2009 Level 1 Level 1



    You say that when you close a document all current versions are lost.  I guess you mean just the ones that you haven't chosen to save?


    I see that you are saying AutoSave and Versions are independent, but Versions is "autosaving" every hour or so.  What happens to those versions when you close the document?


    What if you open a document, just change one thing, print it and close it?  Does Pages save it with that change that you just wanted this one time for printing?


    The way it is now, Pages asks you when you close the document if you want to Save it.  You can say Don't Save and you will have your original document with nothing changed.  What happen now with Pages when you close this said document?


    Personally, I have PLENTY of RAM and disk space and I am not an old dog, I enjoy learning new tricks.  However, I still enjoy having complete control over my computer and I don't want it doing things I don't want, especially when it clutters up things and makes programs slow down.  AND, I don't want it behaving like a mobile device.

  • fiddledeedee Level 1 Level 1



    I just read that 'Save As' in Mountain Lion will not be in the File menu as before, as it is in just about every other program on the planet, only as a keyboard command - and you will have to hold down FOUR keys!  Cmd+Opt+Shift+S.  So Apple is only halfway restoring a staple action.


    One point I made re Versions wasn't quite right.  When you close a saved document, any Versions you created yourself (File>Save a Version) DO still remain accessible via the title bar when you reopen the doc.  Any Versions that Pages saved automatically every hour are lost when you close.


    Autosave is merely an automated Cmd+S.   Versions (I think of it as drafts) allows you to go back and review and edit different drafts of the same document, whether you created versions every 3 minutes or every 3 hours, in an environment similar to Time Machine - you see the current doc on the left and a stack of Versions on the right arranged chronologically.


    So, by using  Versions with Autosave working in the background, you (or at least I) have great control over how you create and edit documents efficiently, without the fear of losing anything or being bothered with Cmd+S, or dealing with a clutter of open Pages  for one project.  It didn't take me long to get used to it.  But I agree, we should have the option to disable features like this.


    My only complaint about Versions, which I hope they fix, is that you  can't name them!  The only way to differentiate is by the time stamp.  I  get around this by putting a title in the top of the doc before I  create a new version.


    If you want to make a quick change to a doc, say for printing, but not save it, after you print go to File>Revert Document... and a box will ask if you want the Last Opened Version (OK) or to view other versions.  Then just close the doc.


    I agree with you 100% about not wanting OSX on my big, expensive iMac to look or act anything like iOS designed for small mobile devices.  In Lion they did exactly that with Mail - horrible!  At least they did offer the option to revert to Classic mode, in preferences, but it took a while to figure that out.



  • linda2009 Level 1 Level 1

    Thanks for clarifying the Versions some more.


    When Autosave is saving (as you work), does it save the File over the File that you opened?  (Or does it save "versions" of your file, making copies as it goes?  See how this gets confusing for me?)  Or, does it just save the information about what's changed?


    I don't use Time Machine like most.  I just use it to make a backup when I want to (I'm able to remember to do it at regular intervals.)  Guess, I like to control my machine!


    If you want to make a quick change to a doc, say for printing, but not save it, after you print go to File>Revert Document... and a box will ask if you want the Last Opened Version (OK) or to view other versions.  Then just close the doc.


    The current behavior in SL, you just have to close the document or even just close Pages and it will ask you if you want to save.  This new way adds one extra step.  Now, you have to remember to Revert, or you will be automatically saving the document with the quick change.  I know, it's just one little step, but it was working just fine before and we should have the choice to keep control or let the OS control.



  • fiddledeedee Level 1 Level 1

    I've tried to make it clear that Autosave and Versions are completely separate.  Autosave is the same as if you were hitting cmd+s to save your work every 5 minutes, except it's automatic and works in the background.  If you want to save a Version at any point while you're working, use Versions in additon to Autosave.  Autosave doesn't overwrite any Versions you saved.  You could go to an Apple store if near you and check it out.

  • elol Level 1 Level 1



    In the dark ages (pc and main frame)  I was a senior technology manager and offered services (realtime/Development/timesharing) to both developers and end users (thousands)  We had backup systems including daily backup, weekly, monthly and yearly. (Versions??)


    This system of apple's confuses even me.    I do not know which version sorry copy or ???   is the one I want.


    The new system whatever  "fiddledeedee " and " Y???" says   is not easy to use or understand.  There is no definite way to get an accountant and/or auditor to believe that what you have is the correct version or file or whatever is out there. 


    We as business people must know what we have is accurate, accountable or the tax man will be after us.


    this new system is not intuitive as it should be.         ( apple used to be intuitive and easy to use)


    Maybe I got it all wrong    My 18 month grandchild can use an IPAD without any problems (games etc)  but I cannot use Numbers/ pages......  easily.??



  • PeterBreis0807 Level 7 Level 7

    Sad that we have to resort to this all because Apple will not admit to having stuffed up.


    My secret to managing Save As… with Lion has been to install Lion on an external drive and ignore it.


    I haven't even switched to it for 2 months and feel totally disinclined to. Waste of money.


    I'm waiting this time to see if Mountain lion is also a waste of money, before I bother stuffing up another perfectly good harddrive by installing it.



  • ericsiegel01 Level 1 Level 1

    Sigh. I used to open up a document, make a bunch of changes, and "Save As" a new version. For this type of workflow, because of Autosave and Versions, restoring the "Save As" command is meaningless.


    Try this out in TextEdit.


    1. Create a new TextEdit document and type the word "Original". Save the document and call it DocumentA


    2. Close it and reopen it. Change the word "Original" to "Modified". Save As ... DocumentB. Close it.


    3. Reopen both documents. The word "Original" is gone. That is because A was autosaved/versioned while you were working on it. So unless you do a "Save As" before you ever start making changes (which is not what you used to have to do) you will have to revert DocumentA to get your "Oiginal" back.


    Essentially you still have to do a "Duplicate and Revert" to preserve the "Original". The new command has given us back nothing.

  • get2 Level 1 Level 1

    I agree.  Lion reminds me of why I stopped upgrading Microsoft OS at XP Pro.  I switched to Mac because I could run XP Pro in Parallels and transition to Apple apps.  I've gone back to Microsoft apps (Excel, Word & PowerPoint) just to have Save As work as it was originally designed.  I'm all for progress, not confusion.  Misguided and out-of-touch are the words that come to mind with screwing up Save As and the "upgrade" to Lion.  Anything that makes give me more work and changes files without my authority is going the wrong direction.  Lion feels  like a downgrade.  I switched to Lion to use iCloud.  But because of all the problems with Lion, such as unreliable saving of documents, extreme slow processing on a new iMac, and the intial fiasco of losing files in the cloud, I bought a backup software I could count on.  Reliability seems to have escaped Lion. 

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