Q: What happened to Save As?

but they are not for creating an abundance of work

That is exactly what is wrong with the entire idea of trying to shoehorn the iOS onto a desktop computer. The iPad and a desktop Mac are two very different computers with very different needs and functions.

I would love to see anyone try and do a tight outline path in Photoshop where your only input was a touch screen like an iPad. Your own finger would get in the way of your view as to where you need to precisely place a path point.

They aren't seeing Versions at work.

They are seeing AutoSave which save every change in the existing file.

Versions create new files in a hidden folder.

I apologize but your arrogant ignorance is astounding.

When we work upon a document in an AutoSaving application, it's easy to check what I explain.

Leave the folder storing the document opened this way.

You will see its modification date evolving and this evolution is not creating a version file.

Here you see the spreadsheet in which I save my bank operations.

It's the unique one which is not stored as a template because I never use it to create other documents.

I open it to make changes or check if the documents issued by the bank are OK.

I open it at least once a day.

Since 2012/01/01, there are only six versions which I created deliberately once a week because inserting datas requires just a few minutes and the Version tool doesn't apply automatically.

I'm really puzzled when i see that the beeing which helped me to master the fonts in OSX prove to be unable to understand such simple schemes.

When we work on a document, three independant tools apply behind us.

(1) AutoSave which save what we do when we leave the keyboard or the mouse (if we don't leave them, it apply after ten minutes)

(2) Versions which store datas once an hour or when we manually trigger Save a Version (I dislike this wording, my choice would be Store a Version)

(3) Resume which store infos about the windows which are open when we leave or close an application.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Yvan..   do not ever get upset with all of us who do not agree with you.  

You have done some great work in researching and in pointing out how things work.  Keep doing this.  But please remember that there are users who depend on their machines for their daily living.

A potter(your past trade) might use an apple computer today to control his ovens.  He might even use it to control his colors etc. 

One potter I worked with (we sold his work in our gallery in Canada) had to have his oven rebuilt.  afterwards his deep red colors were never the same.     He was upset and blamed the person who changed the oven....  the specialist said the  bricks and the heat are  different.....   sorry buddy....  ( we could not sell any more red pottery)

However what is happening or what Apple is trying to do is not for everyone....     for the average user it will be great but for the long term, faithful, worker who depends on the apple for a living it is very difficult.

cheers elo

Message was edited by: elol spelling

My main goal is to try to help you to understand the way the new features are really working.

Kurt Lang which was able to describe the behavior of mac OS regarding fonts (not an easy task) clearly misunderstand these features.

It's only when you will understand them that you will be really able to see their interest.

I apologize but I don't see the link between the computer ruling the oven and the AutoSave feature.

For the rebuilt oven, I'm not surprised.

In an old one, the bricks are impregnated with glaze components (vapors emitted when the glaze is at high temperature). When the kiln reach these high temperature, part of these components leave the bricks and change slightly the kiln atmosphere giving specific results.

When the bricks are new, we don't get this interesting feature (which may become annoying in some cases : if we need to fire perfectly white objects)-. The potter will have to change slightly the glaze formula as long as the bricks will be "clean".

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

They aren't seeing Versions at work.

They are seeing AutoSave which save every change in the existing file.

And that's precisely what I said - four times! - in three very recent posts.

Can you imagine Autosave forced on Photoshop?

exactly how would Autosave save that

it becomes almost impossible to work because the system is saving every little change they make

couldn't type in even just the word "the" without Autosave breaking in

Are you sure you're reading my posts? Or are you deliberately trying to throw other readers of this thread off the path by changing what I wrote to suit your answers?

Here is what you wrote.

Kurt Lang wrote:

 

Can you imagine Autosave forced on Photoshop? Super! I've got a 250 MB file open and do a small brush stroke with the clone brush. As you know, you do this easily at least a dozen times in a small area to get something to look natural. Oh, but wait! Lion is going to try and save every one of those strokes as a version. Not only can you not see the difference between them in the version thumbnails, but you'll spend 80% or more of your time watching the spinning lollipop as the OS saves yet another version you don't want it to instead of getting work done.

It's not me but you who write about versions and version thumbnails!

AutoSave doesn't create versions thumbnails !

Autosave write only in the main file.

Versions, which is the tool creating the versions thumbnails, store datas elsewhere once an hour or when you trigger deliberately Save a version.

It seems that not only you don't understand the system's behavior but you don't understand what you write.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

AutoSave doesn't create versions thumbnails !

Did I really need to write it this way for you to understand?

Oh, but wait! Lion is going to try and autosave every one of those strokes as a version.

And yes, that autosaved document is still of course another version. Otherwise, how would Versions know what to show you when you look back through those versions?

Versions, which is the tool creating the versions thumbnails

Yes, I know that. Wasn't that rather obvious when I wrote:

in the version thumbnails,

You're doing a lousy job trying to disprove my statements.

When you enter the Versionsd display.

What is on the left is the current document.

On the right you have the different versions stored in the hidden folder which I named several times.

If you look at the date of the more recent version on the right (what belong to Versions), you will see that it's not a close date_time.

Here is the current state of my Bank file.

The more recent Version, the one stored in the hidden folder, is dated Today 14:19

The document itself is:

It was modified at 22:26 because some amount was paid from my MasterCard.

Is it clear now ?

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Hi:  Goodmorning to you all.

First of all .  

NeoOffice.   hate it never used it just paid 6 pounds to down load the lion version and try it out.

I will keep using Pages and Numbers until I loose track of the automatic saved versions.  I will try the new work flow.

Yes Linda I will send off my comments to apple.....  and Adobe(I hate Flash allways have).

contemplating buying the low cost Microsoft office..  but NeoOffice have a built in database ....

Yvan   thanks for the info on frequency of saved versions.

As for the introduction of the IOS features some are great but if you are business user Government Audit(tax etc) requirements will be to prove all the time that changes are kept track off, what changes you made and how you got to where you are.  just imagine QUICKBOOKS  manking hourly changes without telling me. (or databases with links ets)  

We need a full statement of direction from Apple as to where they intend to go and what they expect other applications to do.  It this only applies to apple products tell us.

If this statement already exists please point me in the right direction to find it.

cheers elo

I dropped neoOffice and replaced it by LibreOffice which from my point of view is better matching the operating system.

elol wrote:

We need a full statement of direction from Apple as to where they intend to go and what they expect other applications to do.  It this only applies to apple products tell us.

Apple requirements apply to products delivered thru MAS.

Users will be free to  make these choices:

(1) use only applications delivered thru the MAS with their embedded signature

(2) accept to installed applications with an embedded signature delivered out of the MAS

(3) accept every applications

The level of safety decrease according the user's choice.

As for the introduction of the IOS features some are great but if you are business user Government Audit(tax etc) requirements will be to prove all the time that changes are kept track off, what changes you made and how you got to where you are.  just imagine QUICKBOOKS  manking hourly changes without telling me. (or databases with links ets) 

If you made no change, AutoSave save nothing.

If you made no change, Versions save nothing.

Differences between both features :

AutoSave save the entire document on itself. I'm not fond of that because if something fails during the process, the document may become unreadable.

Versions is designed to store only the changes made since the late version storing.

I studied its exact behavior for iWork apps, not for others.

I described this behavior in « Versions as a recovery tool »

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794

My understanding of Versions behavior allowed me to build tools allowing every users to extract a version from the hidden folder if the document itself became unreadable as written below.

As iWork corrupted documents aren't rare  (I receive at least one per week) this feature is really useful.

Serious Database applications like FileMaker or 4th dimension already apply AutoSave for years.

If you don't want that versions datas remain on your HD, you may easily get rid of them.

I wrote this script to do that :

--{code}

--[SCRIPT delete_versions]

(*

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France)

2011/08/29

*)

property redemarrageRequis : true

tell application "System Events" to set les_volumes to name of every disk whose local volume is true

repeat with un_volume in les_volumes

          set ledossier to un_volume & ":.DocumentRevisions-V100:"

          tell application "System Events" to set maybe to exists disk item ledossier

          if maybe then

                    set cheminUnix to quoted form of POSIX path of ledossier

  do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix with administrator privileges

  delay 2

                    do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

  delay 2

                    do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

                    try

                              tell application "Finder" to delete (ledossier as alias)

                    end try

          end if

end repeat

if redemarrageRequis then

          set redemarrageRequis to false

          tell application "System Events" to restart

else

          set redemarrageRequis to true

end if

--=====

--[/SCRIPT]

--{code}

CAUTION: this one force you to restart because deleting these datas fool the system and it refuse to save documents.

Here is a bare version which doesn't restart but shutdown.

Use it as a substitute of the Shutdown menu item.

--{code}

--[SCRIPT delete versions and shutdown]

(*

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France)

2012/02/23

*)

tell application "System Events" to set les_volumes to name of every disk whose local volume is true

repeat with un_volume in les_volumes

          set ledossier to un_volume & ":.DocumentRevisions-V100:"

          tell application "System Events" to set maybe to exists disk item ledossier

          if maybe then

                    set cheminUnix to quoted form of POSIX path of ledossier

  do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix with administrator privileges

  delay 2

                    do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

  delay 2

                    do shell script "chmod -R 777 " & cheminUnix

                    try

                              tell application "Finder" to delete (ledossier as alias)

                    end try

          end if

end repeat

tell application "System Events" to shut down

--=====

--[/SCRIPT]

--{code}

Late, the Apple requirements are delivered to developers.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 23 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Yvan .  I appreciate your comments and input. 

However I need apple's own documents not your personal and very biased view of Apple's direction. 

We all have a bias to what we like and what we want.(I know I do) 

Unfortunately the tax man (auditor) does not care -  he just want a full view of how you got to the figures you have - and proof that your method is accurate.  That is...... he wants a full AUDIT Trail .   month by month view of your data.  That is a monthly view of your file and how you got there.    

I know duplicate the rename!!!!!  

This is what I mean by the constantly changing work flow.

I think I have all done enough talk about this issue and will now move on.

cheers elo

I wrote that Apple requirements are delivered to developers.

I don't develop apps so I never bought a contracy allowing me to do that. As far as I know, those which did that are not allowed to publish this kind of resource.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 23 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Apple don't make things complicated for the customer!

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Give us back the SAVE AS !

Careful, Omar.  You may get inundated by technical emails about why it is not OK to want that, along with some "scripts" you are supposed to implement with the various applications you use in order to stay in the dark ages of Save As...  LOL

I created a TextEdit file, and populated it with information.  When I went to use “Save As,” it did not exist, but “Save…” let me name the file and save it to a folder of my choosing.  That was okay, but when I made changes to the TextEdit file, and went to save it to a different folder, I found that “Save a Version” does not work like “Save As.”   That is a design flaw.  The developer did not think the problem through correctly.  The tried and true “Save” and “Save As” works better than “Save …” and “Save a Version.”

I am not sure what I am allowed to say and what would cross the line.  I know that having trying Lion, I now know that Snow Leopard is Apple's last outstanding Operating System.  I know that I regret having tried Lion on my best and most fully loaded 27” iMac system.  It is things like the missing "Save As" and the missing "Skip" on copy that makes me hate Lion.  I know there are ways to work around such obstacles, but why must we use any workaround?  I know that I relied on Rosetta to keep much of my old software working, and that I lost access to thousands spent on Adobe software.  I know that I am frustrated by most of Lion’s “features.”

I suspect that the Sunk-cost effect is in play, and that there is no turning back.  Loin and its successors are the future.  I know that in time, most of the really bad features will give way to customer demands for more rational ways of operating.  It is just a matter waiting for Lion to heal from the vision of misguided developers.  My advice to the developers is to reinstate as much of the functionality of Snow Leopard as possible.