Q: What happened to Save As?

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

You are free to write what you want.

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

I took a brief vacation from this thread for a few days and returned today to find a new chorus of people wasting more time arguing with Yvan and his admittedly pig-headed insistence on proving the rest of us are wrong because we don't want to drink the Kool-Aid that he finds so appetizing.

Let's keep our focus on the important issue.  Mountain Lion is coming.  It's not here yet.  Inserting Save As into the File Menu could not be a huge technological obstacle.  The code has existed for 20+ years.  Apple could, if they come to their senses, bow to customer demand while at the same time gradually migrating people to see the benefits of their new auto-save features.  There probably are some, but as others have explained here (the example of sending Excel files to a CPA at tax time) they don't always fit all circumstances.

The article explaining what's coming in Mountain Lion is an indication that Apple DOES occasionally respond to requests from its customers.  Being able to modify the name of a file by clicking twice on its name in the GetFile or PutFile dialog boxes is a clear example, and a welcome improvement.  I am open minded enough to think that if the several new interface enhancements in Lion with the title bar and new naming opportunities are found to be useful, I might find myself using Save As a lot less in the future than I did in the past.  And if that turns out to be the case, it would not break my heart or compromise my workflow to find that my File menu includes an item I don't use as often as I once did.  It would be no big deal. 

There are lots of other menu commands I seldom if ever use.  They don't get in my way at all.  Some programs (Adobe CS and FileMaker for example) allow users to customize menus the way they want.  Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.  Hey, wouldn't that be an attractive and creative way to give Save As back to users who want it?

elol wrote:

 

Yvan:  I can see from the level and points you have achieved that you have provided many individuals with good positive help and information.  Do not ruin your good reputation.  Sometimes one must back off on an issue and see what develops even if we do not agree.

As you can see from his subsequent post, Yvan has no concern about his "reputation" (and I can tell you from experience in multiple threads that it is far from a "good" one in the eyes of many).

Indeed, he seems inordinately proud of his obnoxiousness — which offers an interesting insight into his character.

In the end, we have to be grateful that we only have to be exposed to that character in writing. Imagine those who must actually confront him in-person day in and day out.

elol wrote:

 

That is what I would like to see.  A menu command or preference pane feature giving the CUSTOMER  the option to opt out. 

Exactly what I and many other users have been advocating for months.

Leave Auto Save and Versioning as the default in Lion/Mountain Lion...but give experienced users the ability to disable it in Preferences.

Those few people who haven't ignored this suggestion entirely when it's brought up have utterly failed in their efforts to explain why it's a bad idea. Every false objection they have raised has been met.

But instead of admitting that they haven't a leg to stand on, they just melt back into the woodwork and keep singing from the "Apple can do no wrong" hymnal.

Watch as this same scenario unfolds here.

DChord568 wrote:

 

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

You are free to write what you want.

 

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

 

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

 

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

(1) It seems that you didn't understood what I wrote.

The rule is not defined by you but by Apple and is :

8. disclaimer of warranties.

a. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple software and services is at your sole risk and that the entire risk as to satisfactory quality, performance, accuracy and effort is with you.

… Apple software and services are provided “as is”, with all faults and without warranty of any kind , … of satisfactory quality, of fitness for a particular purpose, of accuracy, of quiet enjoyment, ….Apple does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment …, that the functions contained in the Apple software or services will meet your requirements,…, or that defects in the Apple software or services will be corrected.

It clearly mean that Apple reserve its rights to don't take care of what you are free to write.

(2) It seems that you forget that as I am retired, my time cost nothing, so I'm free to use it the way I want. Given the fact that you rant against the time which you are supposed to loose thanks to the new workflow, I guess that from your point of view, your time has a cost.

So, when I write here I waste nothing but you waste what seems important for you : cash.

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.  Alas for you, this apply only to existing menu items and as far as I know, Save As… is no longer existing in recent Apple's apps. In an other thread, someone already wrote that in 10.8, ⌘⇧S is the shortcut for Duplicate which is a meaningful information about your chances to get Save As… back.

Adobe CS and FileMaker allow users to customize menus for years but in the same time, Apple products have non customizable ones. I really doubt that something change in this area.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Isn't this interesting?

I went to the Keyboard Shortcuts in my System Preferences to see if I could add Save As ---  you can try this for yourself.

Choose Application Shortcuts on the left side of the panel.  Then, when you click the plus button to add your application to the right side of the panel, you get a list of all your Applications -- except (drum roll here ....) Pages, Numbers and Keynote are not even in the list!  Text Edit is in the list, however, and so are other Apple programs like Address Book and Preview.  Address Book doesn't use Save As, I think, but Preview does.

Anyway, I was able to manually add Pages by choosing Other .....   and now Pages is another of my applications that is equipped with a custom-made keyboard shortcut, but alas, it doesn't work because the menu item doesn't exist in the Pages application.

But it also brings up another issue, only relevant to this thread because of the "theory" espoused by Apple's defenders about how the new Lion enhancements are intended to improve our workflow.  Every time I open a Pages document I get the same nonsensical warning message about fonts not present that need to be reviewed or not reviewed.  I would like to suppress these dialog boxes, but I can't.  AppleCare cannot explain why even though my system is equipped with all the fonts that are installed with iWork, I still continue to get these crazy warnings that are false alarms.  I tolerate it and dismiss it and move on.  But I don't do it with any sense of satisfaction that the program author-engineers are looking out for my best interest.

sorry could not get image to show properly.    Tried to copy screen showed fine my message but did not come out on the discussion forum.                 

For years, when Keynote, Numbers &é Pages are components of the iWork package , then don't appear directly in the list of apps to which we may add a shortcut.

The huge difference here is that I know the use of the tool while you are ignoring it.

Not only It appears that you ignore the behavior of the define a shortcut tool but it appears that I am using custom shortcuts in Numbers.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

DChord568 wrote:

 

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

You are free to write what you want.

 

Great! Thank you for acknowledging that your previous post, in which you laboriously quoted from Apple's licensing, has no application to this discussion. It seems you were in error.

 

I'm free to write what I want which is mainly that ranting here against features, which are perfectly matchings the license which you accepted, you are wasting your time which seems so precious.

 

Since you didn't seem to mind wasting your time as you did with your earlier post, it seems incongruous for you to speak of me wasting mine.

(1) It seems that you didn't understood what I wrote.

 

The rule is not defined by you but by Apple and is :

8. disclaimer of warranties.

a. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple software and services is at your sole risk and that the entire risk as to satisfactory quality, performance, accuracy and effort is with you.

… Apple software and services are provided “as is”, with all faults and without warranty of any kind , … of satisfactory quality, of fitness for a particular purpose, of accuracy, of quiet enjoyment, ….Apple does not warrant against interference with your enjoyment …, that the functions contained in the Apple software or services will meet your requirements,…, or that defects in the Apple software or services will be corrected.

 

It clearly mean that Apple reserve its rights to don't take care of what you are free to write.

When have I or anyone else claimed something that is in conflict with this last statement? Please quote the passage in which we have done so.

Of course we can't FORCE Apple to do what we want. A four-year-old child would understand this. But that doesn't mean we can't advocate for changes we would like to see. That's all anyone is doing here.

I will repeat...your laborious quoting from Apple's Licensing Agreement has absolutely no application to what is happening in this thread. Ergo, you have wasted your time in doing so.

(2) It seems that you forget that as I am retired, my time cost nothing, so I'm free to use it the way I want. Given the fact that you rant against the time which you are supposed to loose thanks to the new workflow, I guess that from your point of view, your time has a cost.

So, when I write here I waste nothing but you waste what seems important for you : cash.

Simply because you have more time to waste doesn't mean that you're not wasting it.

As for me...we all need entertainment in our lives. Watching you repeatedly make a fool of yourself and being hoisted by your own petard is part of my entertainment.

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.

Actually, I didn't write this. It seems you've made another error.

elol wrote:

 

                   

 

This is what I am looking for in a software package.  If they can do it why not apple or anyone else for that matter

They do not sell on the appstore.

cheers elo

Your screenshot is really interesting

There are thousands of features available elsewhere which will never delivered by Apple and you will not be surprized to read that I am glad of that. I hate what we call in French « usines à gaz ».

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

DChord568 wrote:

 

(3) You wrote : Apple allows users to create their own KeyBoard Shortcuts.

 

Actually, I didn't write this. It seems you've made another error.

On this point you are right.

The quoted sentence was written by :Dennis Burnham

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

This is what I would like to see in most software products.  However this software does not sell on the AppStore..  Obviously you can also enable the features.

they features only get disabled for this application.      cheers elo

One more time you read wrongly.

I wrote that there is no link between Save a Version and templates which is perfectly true.

I wrote that one way to replace Save As… is the use ot templates.

The way defined by Apple is Duplicate + Save….

As I made no error, I can't recognize one.

May you, at last, understand that Save a Version is a menu item which is not dedicated to saving a new  version of an existing document ?

The defunct Save As… was dedicated to save a file in the folder displayed on the left.

Save a Version store pieces of documents in the folder .DocumentRevisions-V100 displayed on the right (it's normally hidden).

The day you will understand that, you will be able to understand the new workflow.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

elol wrote:

 

This is what I would like to see in most software products.  However this software does not sell on the AppStore..  Obviously you can also enable the features.

they features only get disabled for this application.      cheers elo

Happily, such an application would be rejected from the MAS.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 29 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

One more time you read wrongly.

I wrote that there is no link between Save a Version and templates which is perfectly true.

This statement is of no consequence to me, as it involves a topic on which I have made no statement of my own. You brought this up in response to which statement of mine? I have not referenced the term Save a Version in any of my posts.

I wrote that one way to replace Save As… is the use ot templates.

WRONG. When I and others brought up the deleterious changes the absence of Save As has wrought on our workflows, you specifically responded to this with a suggestion to use templates.

Shall I quote the instances in which you did this? Or would you rather I save you the embarrassment? As well as the further embarrassment of demonstrating that when your error was pointed out, you suddenly fell silent rather than acknowledging it?

May you, at last, understand that Save a Version is a menu item which is not dedicated to saving a new  version of an existing document ?

 

The defunct Save As… was dedicated to save a file in the folder displayed on the left.

Save a Version store pieces of documents in the folder .DocumentRevisions-V100 displayed on the right (it's normally hidden).

 

The day you will understand that, you will be able to understand the new workflow.

I understand the "new workflow" perfectly well, thank you. So you've once again wasted your time with all of your screenshots and irrelevant indications of what is saved where.

I understand the "new workflow"...and I don't like it. It does not meet my needs. Save As, which I've happily used since my first Mac in 1988, DOES meet my needs in a superior fashion.

The day you will understand that, you will stop wasting your time with your irrelevant posts.