Q: What happened to Save As?

Yes thanks to Kurt for the link. I downloaded Graphic Converter too. A lot of functions don't work in the trial version but it looks great. Save, Save As, and Duplicate are the default setting, and you can have Save a Version and Duplicate if you switch on the option in preferences.

So now I have a decent batch image converter. I've kept the old version of Pixelmator. I'm using Word and Excel 2008 which still work in Lion, and Rapidweaver has not introduced Save a Version yet (heaven forbid).

My next problem to sort out is Filemaker Pro but that's a different issue. There is no save command since it saves your data as you work so obviously they won't introduce versions.

Omar.KN wrote:

 

P e r s o n a l  a t t a c k s are just as useless as anything else, and those who did it should excuse themselves.

 

Are we less than grown up kids?

Your last phrase is key. There would be nothing whatsoever personal about this thread if certain people would act like grown-ups.

A grown-up takes responsibility for his statements. When someone presents a challenge to one or more of his ideas, a grown-up responds to that challenge, and a dialog is initiated — an exchange of ideas during which different beliefs are put forth, each one supported by evidence.

Someone who is less than grown up, on the other hand, just goes blithely along as if his beliefs have never been subjected to any challenges — as if points against those he has made have never even been raised.

Believe me, I would much rather focus on the core issue of this thread, without letting personalities enter into the picture.

I'm perfectly OK with people disagreeing with my point of view. But those disagreements should be fully explored. If you truly have the courage of your convictions, then you meet and answer challenges to those convictions. Ignoring those challenges and simply restating your case doesn't cut it.

If pointed questions are raised in an exchange of ideas, and those questions aren't even acknowledged, much less answered, then it says a lot about the person who's being challenged — not the least of which is his or her ability to qualify as a grown-up.

tonza wrote:

 

 

Only because I answered your questions already and didn't want to repeat myself.  Go read the posts again... all my answers to your questions are already done.

Really?

OK:

Please explain, in simple terms, why Save As is a "bad idea." (Particularly in light of the fact that, for 27 years, it was a very good and useful idea, serving the needs of millions of users.)

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

Please explain, in simple terms, why taking several additional steps to accomplish the same thing Save As used to accomplish is a "good idea."

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

tonza: And in a few years when Macs work more like iOS devices today, people will be appreciating these advances even more.

Only if they accept the notion that a desktop computer should function in exactly the same way as a device with a tiny screen that you hold in your hand. (And thus, that it should be crippled by having things that can't be accomplished effectively on such a tiny device forced upon it.)

I don't accept this notion...and I'm hardly alone.

I'd love to hear your argument in favor of it.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

Please explain in simple terms how a method of working with one's files (in this case, basing a new document on an older one) that takes several more steps to accomplish what used to be accomplished in two steps is a "more efficient, more effective and more useful" way of doing things.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

I'm constantly amazed (and amused) when people who obviously have no experience in real-world situations confidently state what those of us who do work in real-world situations "need" or don't need.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

tonza: I dare say that in all your efforts in delivering your rather interesting style of remarks to me in particular, you still haven't some to a solution to your problem, have you?

I stated a simple solution to my problem in two earlier posts, and have stated it again in this one. Are you really this dense, or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

In my workflow, "micromanagement" of my files is a great plus. I can group files related to the same project in a folder together, even though they've been created with different apps. Or I can see a number of files created with different apps that are clustered around a given creation/modification date, and glean valuable information from this.

What suggestion do those gleefully looking forward to the day when "...the entire concept of a disk filing system [is] redundant" have for those of us who have happily and productively worked this way for decades?

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

As I've explained many times (as have others), my only priority is to provide for the option to continue using a system that has worked very, very well for Mac users over the last 27+ years. The system can "change" all it wants to, as long as we're given that option.

You have yet to demonstrate that a) this is a bad idea; and b) that it can't be done.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you addressed this point? I must have missed it.

Meanwhile, we've had yet another real-world example of this — markinbali's comparison of using Duplicate vs. Save As to perform the same task. Since you believe that the new paradigm is the wonderful wave of the future, I'm curious, tonza —  why did you choose to make no comment on markinbali's post? You visited after the time he made it. Please tell us why you chose to ignore it.

Could you please requote the passage from one of your posts in which you answered this question? I must have missed it.

DChord,

I think it is time to call a cease-fire. Argueing with Koenig and Tonza is a waste of time and we are in danger of driving people away from this thread. We nead to keep the topic alive. They are only just human end-users like us and number only two, while our opinion represents a huge number of people on this forum and probably a silent majority out there of millions!

There are three reasons not to argue with them:-

1. By continuing to engage with them we are giving them a louder voice than anyone else.

2. They are not capable of understanding our point of view.

I read back through the earlier thread "Save as missing in Lion". Koenig argued until he was blue in the face that standard documents should not be used as a starting point to create new ones and that only templates should be used. He based his argument on the fact that only templates were designed for that purpose. I ask you - can you image anyone never pulling out an existing document and editing it to create a new one - I mean nearly everybody does that at least some of the time and many people only work that way! Koenig would advocate writing the software to prevent people from being able to do that! His phylosophy is totally un-Apple. Intuitiveness and user-friendliness without the need for manuals is the main reason we are Apple users right?

This  example shows you the way these guys think. They are all left brain and no right brain. They only think in numbers and code and therefore can not ever see the issues from our perspective.

3. They are intolerent and rude.

At one stage Koenig even got angry because someone accidentally mispelled his name, while Tonza calls people names like "Drongo"; I'm still laughing at that one!

One last thought. We can give people points for helpfullness. Are we allowed to take points away for negativity?

Hi Markinbali:  you are right on with the work methods.

In mumbers I create an invoice for  sale and return of giclee prints and pictures.  I then go back later and all I do is call up the invoice and update it with sold and new items and save as  and I now have a copy for each months sales to match receipts.  Auditing rules insist on this    ie  the tax man.   Guess what happens if you can not prove sales, bank statements etc?????

The new automatic version would kill me.  it changes the work flow    duplicate, save rename and then work.  same end result but multiple steps and no guarantee I did not make a mistake and make a change by mistake.

I kmow you can lock the file etc.   but all extra work, new steps to remember not easy.  Imagine have to retrain 1600 clerks across Canada in multiple bank branches to the new work process.  That is what evangilists and software staff in back rooms to not understand.  We have end users to think about.  We must make sure that what they do is auditable, secure etc....

for business purposes the new system does not create a safe guarantee workflow.

A comment...   Bean the free word processor, easy to use, free have also implemented a version system of their own design.  It is as an optional opt in........

cheers elo

Because it has taken me 15 minutes of plodding thru this thread to get to a hint of actual user info being passed along, let me just ask:

1. How can I control where my documents are saved, without "Save As"?

2. If I never used Time Machine & don't want to, how can I stop the unlock problem?

Mark --

Please understand that my entire purpose here is to do exactly what you've said...to "keep the topic alive" by focusing the discussion on Apple's boneheaded decision to force the new saving pardigm on everyone (and thus, to take away Save As).

It is a personal failing of mine, which I'll freely admit to, that people who don't adhere to the basic rules of discussion that should apply to one and all — that is, to take repsonsibility for one's views and acknowledge and respond to challenges to them — really hack me off.

We've seen this happen again and again, whether it's Yvan or tonza or the many other Apple apologists I've sparred with in threads such as this. At some point, they realize that their logic has been exposed as faulty and/or they've made statements that are unsupportable. But rather than owning up to this, they just run away and hide when the tough questions are posed. My most recent post provides graphic evidence of this phenomenon.

I agree that it's counterproductive when personalities become involved because it does take away from the main topic at hand. However, if you're looking to place blame for this happening, look directly at those who are dodging the tough questions...and who believe that the rules of logical discourse don't apply to them.

Again, to be clear — I very much want to discuss the topic of this thread, and agree with the goal of keeping the discussion narrowly focused without getting into personal attacks.

But what can you do with people whose approach is basically "This is my opinion. If you put forth a logical challenge to my views, I will ignore those objections and just keep right on stating my opinion. In my world, these challenges simply don't exist"?

@bubbasmom

When you first save a document you can choose where to put it. Afterwards, you have to duplicate then save. You get to choose where to save a fresh duplicate too. We can still do what Save As used to do but now it takes couple of extra steps.

@EVERYONE ELSE

People, I can't believe you've been devotedly feuding for so many months! Don't you know forum fights are like Israel and Palestine, no one will admit defeat, no one will apologise, or even agree to disagree. Just stop replying to each other and only help out people who ask for help. This thread is already so bloated with useless words that its hard to find anything useful being said on topic. So just stop it!

Hi:  reply to myself 

contacted Karelia software re the new Sandvox 2.5    and asked about versions and save as..

reply..

Hello,

If you are running Sandvox 2.5 that has already been implemented.

In Preferences there is an option to turn off Versions.

Hope this helps,

--

Heather Gosney

company@karelia.com

Seems everyone but apple have their heads on straight..

cheers elo

Hi Elol,

That's the kind of positive news we want. I use Rapidweaver and I am hoping that they will do the same thing - an option to turn off versions. That's all we are asking for.

Any Mountain Lion developers reading this, please please please bring back "save as." i am beyond annoyed at the current process to try to save files. In fact, I think you should bring "save as" back and not charge for the update/back-to-the-future upgrade

HI:

understand your frustrations.

However...

I do the following and I suggest everyone do the same..

- contact each and every product developer you work with  ie if you bought and use a pruduct send them an email and tell them that if they plan on implementing Version and   do not implement an opt-in/opt-out you will drop them...

- then contact each and every product developer you are considering to buy from and ask them what their intentions are with respect to Versions etc.    then say if they plan on offering Versions then they must include the options  opt-in   opt- out    if not??? you will not buy their product

this is the only way the message will get through they have access to apple and will pass on the anger.... on the floor

cheers elo

Hello,

I downloaded the trial version of Sandvox 2.5.3 and there is no option to disable autoslave.

What they wrote to you is just a lie.

Elo here....

You are right..  I downloaded and it does  not offer what we were looking for.

they lied to me....

I will get back to them...

elo

I am looking forward to read your next update.

Cheers