Q: What happened to Save As?

Hi.  sent an email to Karelia (sandvox)  waiting for a reply...

Then I telephoned my supplier for Web site software      Softpress  "FREEWAY"  spoke to the product manager.

His reply after listening to my concerns 

They are looking at it as apple obviously is pushing the technology but when large files are being saved it may not be beneficial to use versions.

With time they may have to consider adding Versions etc. if Apple software/hardware demands it.    But they will would like to provide an opt-in  opt-out option.

Markinbali you should contact the developers of Rapidweaver and see what they are planning.  Tell about our concerns.

As the Freeway Product manager said just imagine trying to create versions of sites that are up to 3-4 GB large.

I suggest that you all go back to every product you use and contact the product managers/or reps and voice your concerns.  If  NEOOFFICE and GraphicConverter do it - then why not everyone else.

Cheers elo

Hi Elol and All,

I emailed RealMac Software and I also put a post on the Rapidweaver Community Forum. Waiting for a response.

Cheers

Mark

Save the Save as... !

Further to my last reply :

This is the reply I got from the Product Manager at RealMac.

qte: "Thanks for your message, We're aware of the pitfalls with Duplicate (personally I don't like it!). Right now, it's not something we're looking to implement, however it's something we're always evaluating and may change in the longer term.

Kind regards, "unqte

So it sounds as if Rapidweaver users are safe for the time being, and Realmac at least understand our concerns.

Mark

Save the Save as... !

Latest on  Apple's   mission..(not control)

the app store now have a special heading/highlighted sections showing all the apps that  conform to all of the specifactions and using/make available the options they are pushing.

even Graphics Converter offering the opt-in/opt-out feature is included...

in the quick link section (as of this moment)  it is called "apps enhanced for OSx Lion

cheers elo

Everyone in this thread knows that I have been, since the beginning, a staunch advocate for the restoration of Save As in the File Menu.  Today, I want to pose a question to those who believe that the new "versions" method of document handling is a positive progressive step forward.   I had an incident occur in Pages which I would seriously like to learn how to avoid, so I thought, who better to ask than the pro's who disagree with me?

I had the need to re-open a Pages document that I had written several years ago.  I can't recall when I wrote the letter or where I stored it.  Therefore, I used Spotlight to locate it, and when it appeared in the Spotlight list, I clicked Show in Finder to see what else might appear in the same place.  I then clicked the Pages document to open it, but I did not quickly enough note the original file date/time.

Pages has a feature that allows users to insert the Date and Time.  I use it in most of my correspondence because it saves time to begin a letter with the correct date without typing it or referring to the calendar if you are unsure about what day it is.  Unfortunately, however, the Pages auto-entered date remains dynamic in the document, so the next time you open the document, whether to edit it or just to read it (as was the case for me today) the date in the body of the letter changes to today's date.  In the past, I could take a quick look at the Finder location of the document and see when it was last saved, and that would be my clue as to when the letter was written, and I could, if necessary, over-write the auto-date with the real date and re-save the letter.

But no, in Lion's version of Pages, the Finder date became updated to today's date the instant I opened the old document.  And as I say, the date typed in the letter is also updated to today's date.  So the question is:  how can I determine when the original letter was actually written?

FYI, I tried using the Revert command as soon as I encountered the problem, and of course it opened the Time Machine style view and reported "no previous versions."  Of course, there are no previous versions because the letter was written years ago, probably in Tiger or Leopard. 

This morning I contacted Apple Care and they had no immediate answer either.  Later in the call, the agent discovered that double-clicking the auto-date will open a pop-up menu that includes, among other options for the date, a checkbox that allows the document to preserve the date you insserted without updating it.  Seems to me that ought to be the default behavior, but I won't know until tomorrow whether or not this feature works as expected.

In the meantime, maybe one of the supporters of the new Versions method can tell me what would be the best way to manage documents like correspondence in the new world order?  When inserting a date, if you must always double click it to open a dialog to uncheck a box to keep the date constant, wouldn't it just be faster to type the date manually?

Simple

I never use the application's insert date feature because it doesn't default to the wanted time format.

I use the insert date time service available in the free Word Service.

This way, the date time is fixed and is not modified on later openings.

You are complaining upon the change applied by AutoSave but you forgot to write that the you disabled the "lock files which weren't open for more than two weeks".

If you left this useful feature active, your document wouldn't have been autosaved.

Before Lion, a lot of users already faced the described feature thru an other channel.

They opened an old document like yours then print it.

When they closed it, they got the "Wan't you to save the doc" dialog and they clicked OK or press return.

The new scheme is perfectly consistent and breaking one component was just playing with matches.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

<Edited by Host>

even simpler: avoid Lion and pages altogether

stefano67 wrote:

 

even simpler: avoid Lion and pages altogether

Well, I've taken a hybrid approach to this.

Pages is my word processor of choice, and has been ever since it came out. When the Classic environment breathed its last and I had to give up my beloved WriteNow, Pages came the closest as a logical replacement. I would give up writing altogether before I would use Word.

Because of the loss of Save As, I have "avoided" Lion in my work environment, and will continue to do so unless the option to restore Save As and eschew Auto Save and Versioning is made available.

I was unable to avoid Lion at home, as I had to replace an aging Mac and had no choice when buying a new one — Lion was pre-installed, and I don't feel confident enough nor I do I have the will to jump through the many hoops that would be necessary to get Snow Leopard running on it.

As I seldom do critical word processing at home, I've managed OK. But I have thousands of legacy documents in Pages at work, and furthermore, I like Pages and want to continue working in it.

I refuse to go through the nonsense necessary in Lion to arrive at the same result Save As gives you in Snow Leopard (i.e., six steps vs. two steps). For now, I can carry on as before in Snow Leopard, as there are no other Lion features so compelling that I feel the need to upgrade.

At some point down the road, though, my work computer will have to be replaced, and I honestly don't know what I'll do then if Apple has persisted in forcing Auto Save/Versioning upon its apps, with no option to disable it.

In the course of this long debate, both here and in other threads (and it other forums as well), I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out another change in the history of working on a Mac that is as radical as the change in Saving paradigm introduced in Lion. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out a change that has resulted in a greater uproar from the Mac community than this one.

Not a single one of Lion's defenders has answered these questions — including the loudest of the bunch, whom we've just heard from again here. While they talk big otherwise, they don't have the courage to address these questions...they just ignore them. (Watch now as this happens yet again.)

Similarly, when people come forth with real-world examples of how this change has wreaked havoc with their workflows and actually resulted in destruction of their data, Lion's defenders just whistle and look the other way, rather than acknowledging that their "perfect" system has some very obvious flaws.

What's disturbing is that, to-date anyway, Apple itself seems to be taking this same approach — that is, to ignore the uproar and carry on with their "we know what's best for you" attitude.

I also used Pages for a while. It was ok, but once Lion came up (I installe dit and removed it after 2 days - I also got my money back from Apple) I decided to stop using Pages and all the other autoslave applications, simply because I do not know how long I am going to use Apple.

So I got back to OpenOffice/NeoOffice/LibreOffice that fit 90% of my needs. For some "advanced" presentations I got sadly back to PowerPoint.

My oldest Mac died a couple of weeks ago. No Snow Leopard machines are available today so I decided not to buy an Apple computer yet. Instead I installed Fedora 16 on an old (3.5 yrs) desktop and it is working extremely fine. And incredibly fast.

Hi:

I also do not use pages anymore. 

I now use Bean and if really necessary NeoOffice

the hazzle of the new environment and especially having to continue to remember what to do with old documents is not worth it.

I also have the replacement for Numbers ready   NeoOffice

looking at Microsoft office though.....

cheers elo

give a try to LibreOffice too. Is lighter and faster than Neo.

Hi again 

there is a online service available that will convert   iwork documents..

Have not tried it ..   sent one complex document to test    waiting for results...   no clue  

one way to get out...   ???????  complex long.   but it is there.... 

www.zamzar.com

cheers elo

ps....  let us know    

I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out another change in the history of working on a Mac that is as radical as the change in Saving paradigm introduced in Lion. I have repeatedly asked for anyone to point out a change that has resulted in a greater uproar from the Mac community than this one.

I suspect you wanted your answer from one of the defenders of Lion, but I will give you this perspective, using hardware, not software, as an example of radical changes.

When Apple brought out the first iMac, it caused an uproar by the absence of a "floppy" disk drive.  Apple's position was that if it's small enough to fit on a diskette, you can email it, and if it's bigger than what fits on a diskette, you should be using CD's.   People who had a library of "stuff"  (including lots of pre-OS-X installation software that still ran on the first iMac under System 9) had to make some kind of connection to a legacy machine or maybe purchase a USB accessory.   But, a major difference between that example and the subject of this thread is that you had the choice of buying an iMac with full knowledge what you were getting into.  Not quite the same with the Lion upgrade.

Something similar is going on today:  we still have a mouse, but we are being gradually moved toward trackpads as pointing devices that support "gestures".  Trackpads are obviously less expensive to manufacture, and probably not as susceptible to mechanical failure or warranty replacements.  So while I can see that I may someday have to convert from a mouse to a trackpad, at least for the time being, I have the choice and I can take my time to learn the gestures and use a trackpad at my own pace without it being forced upon me.

The AppleCare agent who handled my Pages issue this morning made this remark when discussing the auto entry of dates:  "We like to give our customers as many options as possible."   My response:  whoever removed Save As from the File menu was not acting in a manner consistent with that philosophy.

DChord568 wrote:

 

Not a single one of Lion's defenders has answered these questions — including the loudest of the bunch, whom we've just heard from again here. While they talk big otherwise, they don't have the courage to address these questions...they just ignore them. (Watch now as this happens yet again.)

 

I apologizes but I was asked by Apple to stop responding to your questions.

As they own these discussions forum I had no other choice than doing what they want.

I passed the info to one oponent but he didn't pass it to yourself and choose to alert Apple about the fact that I posted to his mailbox.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 11 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Another feature that Apple is removing is the CD/DVD drive.  The MacBook Air does not have one and neither does the new Mac Mini.  The MacBook Pro and the Mac Pros still have them.  I don't think removing them from the Mac Mini was a good idea, that's why I bought mine just before the new ones came out.  The Mac Mini is stationary on your desk!!  You have to buy an external drive now for Mac Minis and the price didn't really come down to match that.

Anyway, Apple seems to want to make our desktop systems into iPads or iPhone clones.  It's just not the same.  While some things can be the same, others must remain different!!

...just my two cents.

My opinion is to have the "Save As" "Auto Save" (file menu) options in Lion.  I hope Apple will make it easier to choose.  I've sent my feedback.... here's hoping they hear us all!!