Q: What happened to Save As?

Some months ago I discovered a tool allowing to run OS 9 under Snow Leopard.

I spent time reading the entire product description. When I discovered, at the very end, that it was available only thru torrents, I dropped that because I ignored all upon these « tools ».

Some days ago, I downloaded every records available for free on the official web site of the jazz musician Steve Coleman. Honestly I don't know which was the used channel. I selected titles then clicked download. Maybe it was transferred thru torrents. I really don't know and as there are legal downloads, it doesn't matter.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 16 avril 2012

Ni dieu ni maître !

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Kurt Lang wrote:

 

Just for the record, Yvan is a Mountain Lion beta tester. While he of course is not allowed to reveal anything about the OS itself, I don't think just saying you are part of the group is any kind of violation of the NDA.

 

As for torrents, he was only mentioning they exist. When I was a beta tester for Snow Leopard, it never failed that a new build would be on these sites in less that 12 hours. Sometimes as fast as a couple hours.

The Apple Non-Discloure agreement states this:

6. Nonuse and Nondisclosure of Confidential Information. Except as expressly permitted in this Section 6, you agree that you will not disclose, publish, or otherwise disseminate any Confidential Information to anyone other than those employees and contractors working for the same entity as you who are accepted into the Seeding Program and enrolled in the same individual seed as you, or as otherwise expressly permitted or agreed to in writing by Apple. You further agree to take reasonable precautions to prevent any unauthorized use, disclosure, publication, or dissemination of Confidential Information, including preventing access to or display of the Apple Software to third parties. You agree to accept Confidential Information for the sole purpose of effecting the permitted uses of the Apple Software as set forth in Section 3 above. You agree not to use Confidential Information otherwise for your own or any third party’s benefit without the prior written approval of an authorized representative of Apple in each instance. You hereby acknowledge that unauthorized disclosure or use of Confidential Information could cause irreparable harm and significant injury to Apple that may be difficult to ascertain. Accordingly, you agree that Apple will have the right to obtain immediate injunctive relief to enforce obligations under this Agreement in addition to any other rights and remedies it may have.

In my opinion, Yvan has violated the terms of this agreement. He didn't say anything about being a member of any group, and I don't recall him saying he was a Mountain Lion beta tester. Regardless of whether he did or did not, and regardless of how he came by the information concerning Script Editor's behavior under Mountain Lion — any features of an OS in beta, or the behavior of applications under that OS, are not to be discussed in any forums other than those provided for the beta testers.

So as usual, Yvan is talking out of both sides of his mouth here.

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

 

DChord568 wrote:

 

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

So, I feel free to write what I think even if I was asked to don't do.

 

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

I was ask to no longer try to explain what you refuse to understand.

It's exactly what I do.

 

No need to comment any further...this speaks for itself.

 

But I'll play along. What is it, exactly, Yvan, that I "refuse to understand"? Please be specific.

The removal of Save AS, the introduction of AutoSave, the introduction of Versions as features that we can't disable.

I will not discuss of that.

You have violated the terms of Apple's Non-Disclosure Agreement. You know it and I know it.

However, now that I've made this statement, I will not "discuss" this any further. I'm under no obligation to justify it. I will make this statement, and then say no more about it. If you bring up a point against what I've said, I'll simply robotically repeat the same statement from my first paragraph.

I am using exactly the same tactics you have used throughout this thread (and others as well). If someone challenges your position with a logical counterargument, you ignore it. Why not be a man and admit that you have no good answers? That would at least earn you some measure of respect, rather than the disdain in which you're held.

If you had just once answered the logical questions posed to you here instead of ignoring them, we wouldn't be having this unpleasant conversation now.

I have no problem with people who disagree with my point of view. However, that disagreement has to be based on something a little more solid than "Because I say so."

>

>has violated the terms of this agreement. He didn't say anything about ...

Remember, this thread is about THE LOSS OF SAVE AS.

Not what "he did" or didn't.

Have some mercy with the rest of us trying to get something positive out of Apple discussions forums, please.

/ Omar

::: Communication to improve civilisation :::

s_ip

On 17 apr 2012, at 04:07, Apple Support Communities Updates <discussions-updates@apple.com> wrote:

has violated the terms of this agreement. He didn't say anything about

The best way to help you, and others, get something positive from this important discussion … and at this particular time as Mountain Lion may be given to us someday soon as the next OS upgrade … would be for you to join us in persuading certain writers (one or two in particular, you know who you are) to stop harassing others with their insistence that there is no turning back the wheels of progress.

Nobody who has contributed reasons why SAVE AS should be restored to the File Menu has expressed any wish to deny those who enjoy the newer Lion "versions" method their freedom to use it.  We have been writing requests for CHOICE, in the hope that someone at Apple who monitors this thread may find good reason to consider the requests before the next OS is finalized for release.  We have not been asking for the invention of something new, only for the restoration of something old, which matters greatly to our workflow and could very easily be proven to Apple with real world case history examples.

If you are one of those who is happy without SAVE AS, you contribute nothing to this thread by arguing with the people who want their communications to be heard.  Unless it is your true intent to frustrate our efforts by confusing the matter with unncessary "noise" that distorts the clarity of our signal, on behalf of all those who want Apple to pay attention to this thread, you are being asked to grace us with your silence. 

We have heard enough about torrents and Michelangelo and Non-Disclosure agreements.  We thoroughly understand how Versions is intended to work and we don't deny its practicality for some people and in some situations that happen to not apply to the kind of work we do.  It's really as simple as that:  I don't go into other people's pottery shops and demand that they produce their merchandise the way I produce mine.  To each his own.

Yes, indeed this thread is about the loss of save as.  Even if you deduct from the number of views of this thread all the nonsense that is causing you to plead for mercy, the remainder that is "on topic" is still worthy of Apple's attention.  Plesae don't give up.

Hi:

Well I tried diplomacy and to see if he could partcipate in a normal fashion.  That is to look at both point of views.

I will now use the playground tactic and business tactic where you occasionally run into this type of person.

He no longer exists as far as I am concerned.  No replies, no comments to his rants.  Our anger just feeds his appetitie for irretating all of us and passing on his own beliefs.  This is how some individuals feel they are part of a group.  Instead they just isolate themselves.  Lets leave him alone and ignore him.

I will continue to be part of this discussion and committment to provide complete factual user input to Apple.

One of the most important messages coming out of the last couple of days was that there are some very experienced professionals, with years of experience communicating on this thread.  Lets make use of this knowledge and keep presenting a combined front. Less one.

I would like to see if one of us could present a single page on this system with our common concerns and proposed change/addition to what apple is doing.

It may then be possible for those still on warrenty to call a specialist present a problem encountered with Versions and provide them with the page of information.  Some how this must get through. 

I will contact local sales folks and send it to them.

Also to the genius desks in each Country/City present the page with user names and emails of others you know who agree with us.  

Somehow this will get through.  No business is that blind....

cheers to all of you and lets continue.

I have been an Apple user since the early eighties and do no expect this to change. 

elo

Stefano, sorry for the delay, I was away for a couple of days. Thanks for your advice re linux. My question was somewhat "tongue-in-cheek" and it is very unlikely that I would move away from Mac because there is too much software which I rely on.

I did play around with Linux about 12 years ago on an old pentium, and never managed to get the CD drive working, but the GUI was fantastic and I suddenly discovered that my monitor was capable of displaying beautiful graphics. I was rather thinking that somebody would have made linux much easier to install by now.

My frustration at that time was with Windows, I changed to Mac in 2004 and never looked back.

Sadly this versions issue has really annoyed me, as it obviously has many others. I have both Lion and Snow Leopard running on my MacMini but if I want to continue using SL then I won't be able to upgrade my hardware.

Hi:

I looked at the list of groups on the communities page.  Then noticed that iwork applications  were in a catergory of their own while professional applications were in a different group along with aperture.  Aperture is quite different and saves changes automatically and always have been.

Do anyone here use any of the other pro apps and what is their status with respect to save as and Versions?

especially the recently released apps?????

I have now sent in my comments to both the numbers and pages "provide feedback" under the file column.

cheers elo

Mark,

no problem at all.I also moved to Mac between 2004 and 2005 (although I never abandoned Linux completely).

As I said, if you are happy with Lion stick with it. I've always had the Lx option open and it costs me nothing switching back (it would be much harder to me to go back to Windows, since I never used anything after XP).

Cheers

concerning Script Editor's behavior under Mountain Lion

D'oh! Don't know why I read past that. Disclosing such information about Mountain Lion is of course against the NDA.

But to get back on point. It is something of a good feeling to know Apple's staff have heard thousands of complaints about the removal of Save As. If no one complains, a company has to assume everyone is happy, so don't stop complaining.

elol wrote:

 

Hi:

 

Well I tried diplomacy and to see if he could partcipate in a normal fashion.  That is to look at both point of views.

 

I will now use the playground tactic and business tactic where you occasionally run into this type of person.

 

He no longer exists as far as I am concerned.  No replies, no comments to his rants.  Our anger just feeds his appetitie for irretating all of us and passing on his own beliefs.  This is how some individuals feel they are part of a group.  Instead they just isolate themselves.  Lets leave him alone and ignore him.

I agree with this tactic, and in fact, had planned to suggest this very thing in a post today.

I apologize to those who feel I'm only adding to the noise in this thread, and plead guilty as charged. However, I would like to make the point that I would not be doing this if our adversary here had actually followed the normal rules that govern any intelligent discussion or disagreement.

While I agree completely with Dennis Burnham's elegantly and intelligently stated point of view on the Save As issue, I disagree with him in one regard. I believe that one's point is strengthened when it is tested against opposing points of view. If an objection to your point is presented, and you are able to meet that objection and prove that it's baseless, then your argument is even stronger than before.

My frustration with Yvan is that he has NEVER, in all of these discussions, presented these specific objections. He has never had anything to offer on the Save As issue other than "Apple has instituted it, it's not coming back, end of story." Never a peep about why this is a better course of action for Apple than to offer a choice...never an acknowledgement of the real-world problems the new saving paradigm is causing users. In Yvan's world, none of these things exist.

It's laughable, really, that this senior citizen conducts himself in the manner of a four-year-old child who clamps his hands over his ears and sings "La la la la" when confronted with a reality that intrudes on his world view.

I again apologize for getting off track with other elements. My goal was to give insight into this individual's character (and with the NDA violation issue, to give him a taste of his own medicine). But you know what? My help isn't needed for this to be abundantly clear to all. As I said, his words speak for themselves in that regard.

So I agree. Allow this individual to stew in the juices of his own arrogance. He is, as far as I'm concerned, a non-entity, and not worth our time to acknowledge any further.

No luck.

Long before I got the system, the info was available on some forums

Of course you are free to report that to Apple.

I didn't asked to test, they asked me to do that

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 17 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

elol wrote:

 

I have now sent in my comments to both the numbers and pages "provide feedback" under the file column.

Thanks for this suggestion! While I long ago sent Feedback through the general online form, I had never thought to offer specific feedback through this feature built in to the apps themselves. Kind of looked past it and never noticed it. (In Pages, at least, it's actually under the Pages Menu, rather than the File one.)

Good idea. Off to do this right now.

Long before I got the system, the info was available on some forums

Yes, "some forums" also breaking the NDA. You repeating this illegal distribution of information does not absolve you from breaking the NDA yourself. But enough of that.

Here is my contribution to getting the discussion back on point. Apologies if I've already posted this earlier in this thread. I know I've posted it in other forums.

This is a simple comparison of the steps needed in Snow Leopard vs. Lion to achieve exactly the same result when basing a new document on an existing one:

Save As in Snow Leopard:

1) Choose Save As from the File Menu. (The folder the dialog box opens up to will be the same one your present document is located in, which is where you want to save your new document in most cases. Thus:)

2) Type a name for your new document and key Return.

You are now ready to begin working in your new document.

Duplicate in Lion:

1) Choose Duplicate from the File Menu.

2) Choose Save from the File Menu to give your new document a meaningful name. (The folder the dialog box opens up to will be unrelated to the location of your present document. Thus...)

3) Navigate to where you want to save your new document.

4) Type a name for your new document and key Return.

5) Switch back to your old document, which has remained open.

6) Close your old document.

You are now ready to begin working in your new document.

I'm wondering in what universe Scheme #2 is a "better" way to get things done than Scheme #1.