GunnerBuck
Level 1 (0 points)

Q: What happened to Save As?

I use pages for my work invoices and have a pretty comprehensive filing for previous invoices. The omission of 'save as' in the lion version of pages is extremely frustrating. Is there a work around? Will they fix this in the future or should I switch to a microsoft excel worksheet?

Pages, Mac OS X (10.7)

Posted on Jul 27, 2011 6:12 AM

by Dennis_Burnham,Solvedanswer
Dennis_Burnham Dennis_Burnham
Level 1 (10 points)
A:

Yes, you moron, of course I am certain or I would not have wasted my time "ranting" as you call it.  With experience on this computer platform since 1984 and a shareholder for many years, I have earned the right to express an opinion that is, if I do say so myself, educated.

 

I did not say that there is anything wrong with Lion, notwithstanding some early adoption problems that will certainly become corrected in subsequent releases. Only a fool would discard that much progress because of a few minor glitches having to be learned or resolved.

 

The removal of SAVE AS is different.  It's a classic "ain't broke don't fix it" example.  On a system known for its intuitiveness, Save a Version is as counterintuitive as can be.  You execute the command and you're still on the same document, so what is the "version" and how does it differ from "Save" ?  The Duplicate command has worked splendidly in Photoshop, where there is a reason to have two identical docs open together.  In a word processing environment, that makes sense when you use BBEdit to compare text in multiple docs.  In Pages, as a substitute for Save As, it only results in your having to close the one you just duplicated and eventually use an additional step to name the new one something other than "copy".

 

This change is totally indefensible.  If someone can explain the rationale, go ahead.  Otherwise, you can call me an idiot or a ranter, but it's obvious by the existence of these discussions of the problem that I've got the world on my side on this one.

Posted on Sep 1, 2011 5:41 AM

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Q: What happened to Save As?

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  • by Kurt Lang,

    Kurt Lang Kurt Lang Apr 30, 2012 11:30 AM in response to elol
    Level 8 (38,049 points)
    Mac OS X
    Apr 30, 2012 11:30 AM in response to elol

    that means as I said earlier the code is there.

    Correct. There's really nothing different about it other than if the latest version of iWorks detects it is running under Lion, you are forced to use Duplicate/Versions/Autosave. And Save As, or the ability to turn Duplicate/Versions/Autosave off is not allowed as a user choice.

     

    It's a completely, arbitrarily forced workflow.

  • by KOENIG Yvan,

    KOENIG Yvan Apr 30, 2012 11:42 AM in response to markinbali
    Level 8 (41,790 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 11:42 AM in response to markinbali

    markinbali wrote:

     

    Don't leave yet. One last question.

    It seems from what you said above that  there is no technical reason why the preference option we are requesting could not easily be provided in any app?

    Hello

     

    The codes are in the applications.

    As I wrote, I may explain what is doing what but I can't explain why Apple made this or that choice.

    Here, we have the old code because the apps must be able to run under old systems.

    Apple choose to make the new features permanent and only Apple may give the exact explanation of their choice.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • by KOENIG Yvan,

    KOENIG Yvan Apr 30, 2012 11:43 AM in response to elol
    Level 8 (41,790 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 11:43 AM in response to elol

    elol wrote:

     

    that means as I said earlier the code is there.

     

    could someone try the terminal instructions i mentioned earlier to turn off autosave for pages and numbers...

     

    I already told you that I tested !

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • by elol,

    elol elol Apr 30, 2012 12:22 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 12:22 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

    Yvan..

     

    thank you..  missed that you already tested that  ...  Sorry

     

    elo

  • by KOENIG Yvan,

    KOENIG Yvan Apr 30, 2012 12:54 PM in response to elol
    Level 8 (41,790 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 12:54 PM in response to elol

    In fact I tested immediately after reading that Pixelmator delivered the feature.

     

    From my point of view, the way the feature is delivered in GraphicConvert is more honest (or fair) than the Pixelmator one.

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Apr 30, 2012 1:11 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Apr 30, 2012 1:11 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    From my point of view, the way the feature is delivered in GraphicConvert is more honest (or fair) than the Pixelmator one.

     

    How can it be fair? It's against the rules!

     

    I much prefer Pixelmator way: no Autosaving, no Duplicating, no Locking, just good plain Save As.

  • by KOENIG Yvan,

    KOENIG Yvan Apr 30, 2012 1:19 PM in response to raftr
    Level 8 (41,790 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 1:19 PM in response to raftr

    GraphicConvert breaks the rules but do that the visible way.

    PixelMator hide the trick like a thief. In French we describe that by : « faire un enfant dans le dos »

     

    Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

    iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

    My Box account  is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

  • by elol,

    elol elol Apr 30, 2012 1:28 PM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 1:28 PM in response to raftr

    Hi:  raftr

     

    what did you do?

     

    I cannot get it to work on either of my machines.   ie the test version...

     

    could you re post the commands.....

     

    I have used terminnal many times and success.   bu this time no go..

     

    elo

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Apr 30, 2012 1:48 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Apr 30, 2012 1:48 PM in response to KOENIG Yvan

    KOENIG Yvan wrote:

     

    Apple choose to make the new features permanent and only Apple may give the exact explanation of their choice.

     

    The explanation is simple: big strategic decision to try and get iOS and OSX closer because it is a natural direction for them to become one someday in the future.

     

    iOS always saves app state on closing. Many apps, like text editors, don't even have a "save" option, they just save automatically and resume the last state on launch.

     

    Autosave and Resume follow Apple mobile paradigms. But… this is where problems begin. Because the decision came from a political/strategic standpoint, not user experience one, everything that follows is an afterthought.

     

    You close an app. Old app asks you what to do with open files. New app just closes and Autosaves.

    Autosave means destruction of the original version, so there is a need for Versions to store the old one. Where to store Versions? Who knows, let's put them in root folder. It's not like anyone is going to ever use it.

    What if someone opens an old file and doesn't want changes saved? Let's lock the file for them. When? It's not important, maybe two weeks? OK, let's make it two weeks, as good as any.

    What? They want to make edits and not overwrite the original? Who does that? Let's think of something… will duplicating work? Let's make those files duplicate, problem sorted.

     

    And so on, and so on… afterthoughts and yards of duct-tape to conform to the main "make it like iOS" decision. Add the state of uncertainty and urgency Apple was under when this was happening… and here we are.

     

    Thing is, the new paradigm doesn't work. Not even in iOS in many cases. Well it does work for some apps like text editors, as I said.

     

    But… take any photo editing app on iPhone—Instagram, CameraBag or whatever. Open a picture, edit, save. The edited image is Saved As a NEW image. Original is always preserved. What just happened, was mobile version of Save As (only the name was generated automatically). Destructive editing without overwriting of the original file and without duplicating. No versioning, just saving as a new output file, as common sense says it would be.

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Apr 30, 2012 1:59 PM in response to elol
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Apr 30, 2012 1:59 PM in response to elol

    elol wrote:

     

    Hi:  raftr

     

    what did you do?

    That's not me you should be asking, I don't have Pixelmator. Check a few pages back I suppose.

  • by elol,

    elol elol Apr 30, 2012 2:12 PM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 2:12 PM in response to raftr

    Sorry Raftr

     

    assumed your statement

     

     

    "I much prefer Pixelmator way: no Autosaving, no Duplicating, no Locking, just good plain Save As."

     

    meant you had tried it and seen it....

     

    cheers elo


  • by bpbpbp,

    bpbpbp bpbpbp Apr 30, 2012 8:20 PM in response to elol
    Level 2 (205 points)
    Apr 30, 2012 8:20 PM in response to elol

    Not wishing to put a 'spanner in the works' here in this discussion about 'Save As' but this new disliked autosave paradigm is causing other problems for me. Is anyone finding it annoying that the last auto saved version is popping up when the application is opened?

     

    I'm used to telling the application what I want opened. I had a PC friend over the other day and was showing him my Mac; went to open Pages and up popped a file that I had not wanted to show him (personal business). It was the last file I had used on the Pages programme.

     

    Is this auto 'pop up' avoidable as it can be embarrassing?

  • by Barry,

    Barry Barry Apr 30, 2012 11:50 PM in response to bpbpbp
    Level 7 (32,721 points)
    iWork
    Apr 30, 2012 11:50 PM in response to bpbpbp

    Hi b,

     

    Probably better to post this  type of message (a request for tech help) in a thread separate from this one (arguing the merits and demerits of autosave/versions, etc.)

     

    The new feature that' bugging you is "resume", a feature that assumes anything you left open is something you're not finished with. Because you're not finished with it, Resume opens it the next time you launch its application so that you can continue working on that file.

     

    Avoiding that popup is something your mother (and your kindergarten teacher) told you (many times, if you're like me): "If you're done with your toys, put them away."

     

    Translated to the current situation: "If you're finished with that file (for now), close the file before you quit Numbers." Do that, and Resume knows you're done with the file (for now), and won't open it when you next launch Numbers.

     

    Same for Pages, but this thread is in the Numbers community, so I've referred to Numbers here.

     

    Regards,

    Barry

  • by bpbpbp,

    bpbpbp bpbpbp May 1, 2012 6:40 AM in response to Barry
    Level 2 (205 points)
    May 1, 2012 6:40 AM in response to Barry

    Hi Barry,

     

    Thanks - you answered my query. No point redirecting my post to another thread nor contacting tech support.

     

    I could have sworn I was closing each file properly but I will pay particular attention to this from now on and see what happens.

     

    Sorry I ended up on the wrong thread - stuff happens.

     

    Regards,

  • by dfordrummer,

    dfordrummer dfordrummer May 1, 2012 8:20 AM in response to GunnerBuck
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 1, 2012 8:20 AM in response to GunnerBuck

    Duplicate is a poor substitute.

     

    My work on presentations takes a lot longer to set up when you have to 'Duplicate', then 'Save as...' just to create a new Client version to start work on.

     

    It's Nuts.

     

    By all means keep the 'Duplicate' option, but make the 'Save as..' a system wide Preference to add it in. Just like you did with natural scrolling for a mouse.

     

    Russell

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