What happened to Save As?

PeePee Sprinkles wrote:

I admit my typos.

I admit you didn't help me, but that you are proud to be a fan-boy.

Uh-huh.

But you DON'T admit that:

1. You never acknowledged or replied to this post, which I made immediately after your entry into this forum. If you had, none of what followed would have been necessary, because you could have easily clarified which operating system was installed on your Mac.
2. You erred in this post when you said you had previously stated that you have OS 10.7 (Lion) installed on your computer, not OS 10.8. In fact, you had made no such statement prior to this anywhere in this thread.
3. Although you had every opportunity to admit this error when I called it to your attention in this post, you failed to do so...thus compounding the error. Of course, to do so would have been to admit to an embarrassing truth about yourself, so you chose instead to ignore it and hoped no one would notice.

As for calling me a fan-boy, I'm amused that you imagine you're dealing me a cutting-edge insult by calling me this. Never mind how clichéd and lame the term is by now...if you had bothered to review my many posts in this thread, you would have seen that all but the most recent portray me as mightily PO'd at Apple for their incredible Save As blunder.

I admit you can' t see beyond an arbitrary forum name (seems racist).

LOL! A racist takes a quality that an individual has no control over (skin color and/or ethnic derivation) and extrapolates from that a (negative) opinion of ALL people who have these qualities, with no regard for their individual characteristics.

I took a quality that you DO have control over (your choice of a screen name) and formed an opinion about YOU and you only.

And guess what? That opinion was formed by far more than just your screen name, which was merely icing on the cake. If you hadn't come into this forum with a chip on your shoulder and used aggressive, offensive language in your posts right out of the gate (e.g., "Typical apple discussion jerk response"), I never would have had anything to say about your screen name.

I also admit Kurt Lang has provided a great response for 10.8 users, Thanks Kurt. It seems I have to upgrade.

Kurt is a wonderful guy. But you could have had this "great response" and drawn this conclusion days ago (and avoided a great deal of unpleasantness) if you hadn't had your head stuck up there where the sun don't shine.

I'm greatly looking forward to seeing how you'll ignore all the things presented here in your next post.

Yes, you moron, of course I am certain or I would not have wasted my time "ranting" as you call it. With experience on this computer platform since 1984 and a shareholder for many years, I have earned the right to express an opinion that is, if I do say so myself, educated.

I did not say that there is anything wrong with Lion, notwithstanding some early adoption problems that will certainly become corrected in subsequent releases. Only a fool would discard that much progress because of a few minor glitches having to be learned or resolved.

The removal of SAVE AS is different. It's a classic "ain't broke don't fix it" example. On a system known for its intuitiveness, Save a Version is as counterintuitive as can be. You execute the command and you're still on the same document, so what is the "version" and how does it differ from "Save" ? The Duplicate command has worked splendidly in Photoshop, where there is a reason to have two identical docs open together. In a word processing environment, that makes sense when you use BBEdit to compare text in multiple docs. In Pages, as a substitute for Save As, it only results in your having to close the one you just duplicated and eventually use an additional step to name the new one something other than "copy".

This change is totally indefensible. If someone can explain the rationale, go ahead. Otherwise, you can call me an idiot or a ranter, but it's obvious by the existence of these discussions of the problem that I've got the world on my side on this one.

Save a Version was described several times.

It save the late changes in a hidden folder whose contents is used when you ask the app to move back to an older version.

I posted details and tools enhancing its power in :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794?answerId=16208616022#16208616022

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) jeudi 8 décembre 2011 09:45:15

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Network 23 wrote:

terryc23 wrote:

Now neither "Save a version", nor "Duplicate" allows you to specify a different format, you can't even rename the file except for the forced default "...copy" name.

(1) Save a version save different states of a given document in a given format so there is no reason to give the ability to embed one version in a different format.

(2) When we duplicate, we use the Save… menu item to save the document and in this case we may choose the format. Here is what is available with TextEdit :

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 19 décembre 2011 22:26:42

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.2

My iDisk is : <http://public.me.com/koenigyvan>

Please : Search for questions similar to your own before submitting them to the community

Kurt Lang wrote:

It's why I wrote : use Lion as is or use an other tool.

Which I replied to in "and have no option to avoid it?". Exactly what other tool would you suggest? Windows?

You are free to choose. On my side, the choice is done.

It's the same for Adobe Reader or Skim.

Not sure what Skim is, but the Adobe Reader can't change anything. It is a viewer only.

Skim is an alternate viewer/editor.

But for sure, Adobe Reader is just a viewer 😕

Applying a rotation is editing the file.

That wasn't my point. Preview suggests to pretty much anyone that it is a viewer. That it's not intended to be used for anything else. Yes, I know you can export to other file types with it, so it isn't just a viewer. But users expect it to be nothing more than a viewer, and find it frustrating when changes reappear the next time you open a document.

And for sure, the Finder is just designed to Find files.

It's ridiculous. An application is not necessarily designed to deliver a single feature.

The first Preview was a viewer but I carefully wrote : For years, Preview is much more than a viewer.

The fact that you didn't took care of that change nothing to the reality.

To be continued

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 6 février 2012 19:00:34

About Preview :

It's time to understand that the engineers are tossing when they design apps and that Apple engineers, they never explain their choices.

I realize English isn't your first language, but I have no idea what you mean by "tossing".

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 6 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

Hi tonza

On my size I filed a report asking them to solve the problem because at this time, the description given in Apple Web sites open the door to a class action.

I know several users, fooled by this badly wrote page, which assumed that their doc will be automatically saved.

In fact AutoSave apply correctly to documents which were saved once.

For documents which were nevere saved before, we get, in the "AutoSave Informations" folder, files which alas doen't embed the important datas : empty containers.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 11 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

"Do you really, truly not understand that "learning the way it works" cannot change the fact that Duplicate is slower and takes more steps than Save As?"

That's not true, it doesn't: Duplicate and Save As... take the same amount of time to execute on a 650 MB Pages file filled with 28 pages worth of graphics and some text in their own frames:

The only difference between Save As... and Duplicate is the order of operations the system performs in conducting your work. This is a mindset that can easily be overcome with a little practice.

Sorry about my earlier ed.

—tonza

Dennis Burnham wrote:

This is not the xxxth time, but it is not the first either. I don't want hundreds of Templates. My templates are like stationery. They contain certain basics, but not the full content of my previous correspondence in Page. The same is true for Numbers and Keynote.

Moreover, the Lion changes also occur in other apps, like Text Edit, which does NOT have the template feature.

If I were to write you a letter today, I would certainly not want it to be a Template, because I would not have the intention of ever writing another similar letter to you again. But if I found it necessary to write a letter to someone else, and perhaps use 80% of the content of something I had written to you, I would want to re-open the letter I wrote to you, change certain things about it, and then use SAVE AS to rename it and maybe file it away in a folder I use for that other person.

It's exactly why for years I use templates every time which I must reuse a part of a document.

I already wrote xxx times that

xxx.pages --> xxx.template

xxx.numbers --> xxx.nmbtemplate

I wrote the same count of times that

for TextEdit and Preview we just need to trigger a checkox in the infos window.

I never keep documents in their standard documents status. I always store them, in the folders of my choice, with stationary/template status.

Where is the problem?

You wrote a letter to Mr Durand and saved it in TextEdit as txt, rtf or rtfd and checked the box "Stationary".

If I remember well, I posted a script doing that automatically.

Ten days after you want to write to Mr Dupont. Double click the old letter. You will get a new document which you may edit as you want with no risk to destroy the file storing the old letter.

There is absolutely no time wasted in this scheme.

And you may be disturbed twenty times, you will not destroy your original.

It's funny because when I learn something new in a forum I post a message :

Thank's, it's a good day, I learnt something.

Learning is a human properties. Are you just monkeys reproducing all day long what was carved in you brain ?

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 13 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

tonza wrote:

Wow! That's one **** of a pickup! How'd you come across that?!

;-)

We are urged to read the License before installing every app but we may also read it later (or before if like me you are thinking that consumer is a true job).

Clicking open the page below.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 14 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Which AutoSave are you wanting to delete ?

AutoSave doesn't create new files except empty skeleton when we quit without saving a newly created document.

Tonza wrote about them. They are the results of a bug.

Documents are supposed to be saved automatically when we create new ones from templates or thru Duplicate.

At this time we may find these "skeletons" in the folder :

Macintosh HD:Users:<yourAccount>:Library:Autosave Information:

This morning, mine contain only three of them because I worked most of the time from an other bootable HD:

Document Numbers non enregistré.numbers

Document Pages 2 non enregistré.pages

Document Pages non enregistré.pages

After checking that they are empy, I trash them.

If you were asking about Versions, it's an other problem.

We may remove some versions thru the official GUI:

There is also the brute force scheme : rename a file or move it on an other device.

The versions will be dropped.

From my point of view it's annoying. Would be better to adjust the links automatically when we rename a file and display a dialog warning when we move a file on an other device.

I'm sure that some users already loose their old versions this way.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mardi 21 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Dennis Burnham wrote:

You are right about the difference between the techies and the ordinary people, or the "monkeys" as you call them. Although I think NASA and Jane Goodall proved that primates learn faster than humans ... or was that mice? Anyway ...

It seems that you don't understand what is "monkey test".

May look at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_test

All along, I have not been saying that the auto-save is necessarily a bad idea. I just say that people need to be instructed about its use and not have it thrust on them like a mystery.

Save As… was dropped and replaced by Duplicate + Save… in : Keynote, Numbers & Pages.

The changes are described in the User Guides. Here is a subset of Pages User Guide:

Save As… was dropped by TextEdit :

Save As… was dropped by Preview which is not only designed as a viewer but as an Editor !

I will post the related datas in an other message

Apple may deliver the infos but they can't read them for the users!

And secondly, it would not cost anything or do any harm to leave the older tools in the menu in the meantime.

Given the changes introduced in the system, I doubt that maintaining Save As… had no cost.

In graphic design programs, multiple levels of undo are the more efficient way to manage the process of iterative change.

Versions is an efficient multilevel undo tools.

It's the way I use it

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

… continued

Save As… was dropped by Preview which is not only designed as a viewer but as an Editor !

iBooks Author didn't dropped Save As… because this new app never offered it. Its Help state :

As you may see, the new features are well described in delivered resources.

Apple carefully designed them.

If users refuse to read these resources, the problem is not on Apple side.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

They aren't seeing Versions at work.

They are seeing AutoSave which save every change in the existing file.

Versions create new files in a hidden folder.

I apologize but your arrogant ignorance is astounding.

When we work upon a document in an AutoSaving application, it's easy to check what I explain.

Leave the folder storing the document opened this way.

You will see its modification date evolving and this evolution is not creating a version file.

Here you see the spreadsheet in which I save my bank operations.

It's the unique one which is not stored as a template because I never use it to create other documents.

I open it to make changes or check if the documents issued by the bank are OK.

I open it at least once a day.

Since 2012/01/01, there are only six versions which I created deliberately once a week because inserting datas requires just a few minutes and the Version tool doesn't apply automatically.

I'm really puzzled when i see that the beeing which helped me to master the fonts in OSX prove to be unable to understand such simple schemes.

When we work on a document, three independant tools apply behind us.

(1) AutoSave which save what we do when we leave the keyboard or the mouse (if we don't leave them, it apply after ten minutes)

(2) Versions which store datas once an hour or when we manually trigger Save a Version (I dislike this wording, my choice would be Store a Version)

(3) Resume which store infos about the windows which are open when we leave or close an application.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

When you enter the Versionsd display.

What is on the left is the current document.

On the right you have the different versions stored in the hidden folder which I named several times.

If you look at the date of the more recent version on the right (what belong to Versions), you will see that it's not a close date_time.

Here is the current state of my Bank file.

The more recent Version, the one stored in the hidden folder, is dated Today 14:19

The document itself is:

It was modified at 22:26 because some amount was paid from my MasterCard.

Is it clear now ?

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 22 février 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k