GunnerBuck
Level 1 (0 points)

Q: What happened to Save As?

I use pages for my work invoices and have a pretty comprehensive filing for previous invoices. The omission of 'save as' in the lion version of pages is extremely frustrating. Is there a work around? Will they fix this in the future or should I switch to a microsoft excel worksheet?

Pages, Mac OS X (10.7)

Posted on Jul 27, 2011 6:12 AM

by Dennis_Burnham,Solvedanswer
Dennis_Burnham Dennis_Burnham
Level 1 (10 points)
A:

Yes, you moron, of course I am certain or I would not have wasted my time "ranting" as you call it.  With experience on this computer platform since 1984 and a shareholder for many years, I have earned the right to express an opinion that is, if I do say so myself, educated.

 

I did not say that there is anything wrong with Lion, notwithstanding some early adoption problems that will certainly become corrected in subsequent releases. Only a fool would discard that much progress because of a few minor glitches having to be learned or resolved.

 

The removal of SAVE AS is different.  It's a classic "ain't broke don't fix it" example.  On a system known for its intuitiveness, Save a Version is as counterintuitive as can be.  You execute the command and you're still on the same document, so what is the "version" and how does it differ from "Save" ?  The Duplicate command has worked splendidly in Photoshop, where there is a reason to have two identical docs open together.  In a word processing environment, that makes sense when you use BBEdit to compare text in multiple docs.  In Pages, as a substitute for Save As, it only results in your having to close the one you just duplicated and eventually use an additional step to name the new one something other than "copy".

 

This change is totally indefensible.  If someone can explain the rationale, go ahead.  Otherwise, you can call me an idiot or a ranter, but it's obvious by the existence of these discussions of the problem that I've got the world on my side on this one.

Posted on Sep 1, 2011 5:41 AM

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GunnerBuck

Q: What happened to Save As?

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  • by Dennis Burnham,

    Dennis Burnham Dennis Burnham Jul 30, 2012 6:21 AM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (29 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 6:21 AM in response to raftr

    Bravo…Mazel Tov…Congratulations and thank you for this solution.  How I wish I could serve this up on a silver platter to someone special in France.

  • by Kurt Lang,

    Kurt Lang Kurt Lang Jul 30, 2012 6:31 AM in response to raftr
    Level 8 (38,049 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 6:31 AM in response to raftr

    I particularly like the remap addition that reassigns Command+Shift+S back to Save As where it belongs, and has the added bonus of hiding Duplicate in the process.

     

    An even bigger bonus would be if Mountain Lion still accepts Stupidd Looser's Terminal defaults changes to turn autosave/versions off. Then you are truly back to pre Lion silliness. Hard drive space isn't being wasted on versions you don't want, or need; and Save As has its original shortcut.

  • by stefano67,

    stefano67 stefano67 Jul 30, 2012 6:32 AM in response to GunnerBuck
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 6:32 AM in response to GunnerBuck

    Almost one year ago...

     

     

    KOENIG Yvan VALLAURIS (France)

     

     

    This change is perfectly coherent.

    It's you which used the word idiotic to define the choice made by Apple.

    They are perfectly free to make the changes which they want as well as you are perfectly free to drop their products.

    Alas for you, every third product will be updated to take benefit of Lion new features.

    Some will do that the way used by xCode, others will do that the way used by TextEdit, Keynote, Numbers, Pages…

     

    The logic behind the changes were explained several times but you just prove that you are unable to understand such simple things.

     

    I guess that you are ready to switch to Mer.oSoft products !

     

     

    Today Apple reintroduced Save As... as an innovative feature of Mountain Lion (ROTFL - simply ridiculous: http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html)

     

    I guess "This change is perfectly coherent." was not the completely true...

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Jul 30, 2012 6:34 AM in response to Dennis Burnham
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Jul 30, 2012 6:34 AM in response to Dennis Burnham

    Dennis Burnham wrote:

     

    Bravo…Mazel Tov…Congratulations and thank you for this solution.  How I wish I could serve this up on a silver platter to someone special in France.

     

    I understand you congratulate the crowd here for keeping the pressure on Apple and Apple on getting back to their senses

     

     

    Note: I had to disable the Terminal trick from previous page for this to work in Numbers and Preview:

     

     

    Numbers:

     

    defaults write com.apple.iWork.Numbers ApplePersistence -bool yes

     

    Preview:

     

    defaults write com.apple.Preview ApplePersistence -bool yes

  • by stefano67,

    stefano67 stefano67 Jul 30, 2012 6:34 AM in response to GunnerBuck
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 6:34 AM in response to GunnerBuck

    And who knows, maybe next year with Lion Service Pack 2 we will be able to properly turn off Autosave and Versions (I know we can already, kind of, but some functionalities are lost - at least in my case...)

  • by stefano67,

    stefano67 stefano67 Jul 30, 2012 6:35 AM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 6:35 AM in response to raftr

    Right, this is what happens to me too.

    Either I disable Autoslave or I enable Save As...

    Why can't we get both?

  • by Kurt Lang,

    Kurt Lang Kurt Lang Jul 30, 2012 6:41 AM in response to raftr
    Level 8 (38,049 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 6:41 AM in response to raftr

    Yeah, I just noticed that you already found out the Terminal trick doesn't work in Mountain Lion. For me, it's not a big deal since the only Apple supplied apps which support Autosave/Versions I even use are Preview and TextEdit.

     

    You can still use SL's version of TextEdit in ML. SL's version of Preview is completely broken and won't even launch. But with ML's new options in the System Preferences to always ask if you want save changes turned on, when you close Preview, one of the choices is now "Revert and Quit (or Exit, can't remember which at the moment)". So you at least have the option to throw out any changes on the fly instead of having to manually revert every image you had open in Preview.

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Jul 30, 2012 6:42 AM in response to stefano67
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Jul 30, 2012 6:42 AM in response to stefano67

    I don't mind Autosave that much now that I have the option to always be asked if I want to keep the changes or "revert" them.

     

    It is technically the old "do you want to save changes" prompt worded differently.

     

    Screen Shot 2012-07-30 at 14.35.55.png

  • by stefano67,

    stefano67 stefano67 Jul 30, 2012 6:54 AM in response to Kurt Lang
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 6:54 AM in response to Kurt Lang

    Hello,


    I believe these two options are worse than useless and I am going to tell you why.


    If you know your crappy autosave app will change your documents you will force yourself to always work on copies (or change software, as I did).


    With these options you may have the ILLUSION to have control while it may not be the case.

     

    In fact documents are autosaved and the popup actually asks if you want to revert to the original version.

    This is a totally idiot implementation (another one by Apple on this topic) of version control. A safe implementation should NOT touch your file until you actually WANT your changes to be saved.

     

    Imagine this scenario:


    1. you use Preview to open the best photo you ever made because you want to prepare a Keynote presentation (let's say the photo is on a shared drive, not supporting versions)

    2. you edit your photo (crop, resize or whatever)

    3. you copy it and paste it in Keynote and you work on the presentation for some time

    4 (hidden). autosave saves your modified photo without your consent, but you know it will ask you if you want to revert back...

    5. while you work on Keynote, Preview crashes (it DOES crash occasionally)

    6. hours after you complete your presentation, save it and prepare for live pres.


    Your photo is gone forever.


    You may argue Preview does not crash. Then imagine a thunderstorm cutting the electricity. Same risk.


    My advice: AVOID autosave, versions and all the applications that force you to use them.

  • by raftr,

    raftr raftr Jul 30, 2012 7:00 AM in response to stefano67
    Level 1 (0 points)
    iTunes
    Jul 30, 2012 7:00 AM in response to stefano67

    It's not ideal as is now but it's a very workable compromise. In case of crash you can revert to original with Versions.

     

    I still insist Adobe has the best solution: treats files the "old" way, leaving you full control over saving but also adds option to save an emergency copy in predefined time intervals in case of crash.

  • by Kurt Lang,

    Kurt Lang Kurt Lang Jul 30, 2012 7:02 AM in response to stefano67
    Level 8 (38,049 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 7:02 AM in response to stefano67

    A safe implementation should NOT touch your file until you actually WANT your changes to be saved.

    No disagreement from me. I'd really like to kill Autosave/Versions completely and forever. Someone at Apple though still seems to think they know better than the person the documents belong to what to do with them.

     

    I've seen enough reports of permanently lost documents caused by Autosave/Versions failing to save them properly, or in such a way that they not only couldn't be opened, but were actually gone!

     

    I'll tolerate it in Preview since I never, ever use it to make any changes. I use it as a viewer only. Though even then, I would bet it's still prepping versions in the background for every file I open.

  • by stefano67,

    stefano67 stefano67 Jul 30, 2012 7:08 AM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 7:08 AM in response to raftr

    @raftr

    It's not ideal as is now but it's a very workable compromise. In case of crash you can revert to original with Versions.

     

    That's the point: if the volume you are working on supports Versions I'm with you. I often work on network drives and in that case I would lose my original file.

    The fact that in some conditions you are safe while in others you are fubar makes a false sense of safety that (IMHO) is much worse than knowing I'm in danger.

  • by linda2009,

    linda2009 linda2009 Jul 30, 2012 7:36 AM in response to raftr
    Level 1 (66 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 7:36 AM in response to raftr

    @raftr - Thanks for your posts, very helpful. (I still have SL, waiting as long as I can to upgrade.)

    I noticed in the screenshot you provide, those two options "Ask to keep..." and "Close windows..." are two options I would enable, too.  But, how cruel of Apple to hide them in preferences like that (thank goodness they are there tho!!).  They are under General, not labeled - should be "Turn off AutoSave" (is that what it's doing basically?) and "Turn off Restore Windows."  I think it's kind of sneaky.  A lot of basic users won't find it. But, we're all learning Persistence can pay off with Apple!!

     

    I'm with you guys though - happy to see there's an easy way to switch Duplicate with Save As!  Happy these two options are available somewhere, and look forward to the day when AutoSave and Versions has a option to be TURNED OFF!  It probably doesn't help that I don't have Lion at all, but AutoSave and Versions and Duplicate are so confusing [for me]!!

     

    And, how sneaky of them to kill Stupidd Looser's Terminal commands to kill/disable AutoSave, Versions, and Resume!!  I wonder, which is better?  @raftr, if you don't switch Duplicate and SaveAs, do the Terminal commands still work?  Now we have to choose between which we have to give up?

     

    We have to keep telling Apple; we can't let them think this satisfies us!!  Keep sending in those feedbacks!

    http://www.apple.com/feedback/

     

    And again, thanks to all who posted here, it has been so helpful. (I could name names, but the list is really long...! LOL!)

  • by Kurt Lang,

    Kurt Lang Kurt Lang Jul 30, 2012 8:27 AM in response to raftr
    Level 8 (38,049 points)
    Mac OS X
    Jul 30, 2012 8:27 AM in response to raftr

    It appears RonL has the answer here.

     

    Instead of disabling Autosave/Versions on a per app basis, it's a global change.

  • by RonL,

    RonL RonL Jul 30, 2012 9:39 AM in response to Kurt Lang
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Jul 30, 2012 9:39 AM in response to Kurt Lang

    Here's also a way (thanks to TJ Luoma at The Unofficial Apple Weblog) to get back the "Save As" in our File menu and have the original keyboard shortcut returned to us as well... without having to hack the OS.

     

    http://www.tuaw.com/2012/07/29/get-save-as-back-on-mountain-lions-file-menu-easi ly-and-without/

     

    Enjoy.

    .

    .

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