Level 1

17 points

Chronic catastrophic data loss with Lion & servers

Auto-save and versions, when combined with multiple users and a server environment virtually guarantees catastrophic data loss.

Here's how you replicate it.

(1) Place a photo on a server.

For us, this is where we recommend people keep important files. Their desktop may be backed up with time machine, but the server is RAID 6 with hot spares, and on top of that is backed up every night. Much, much safer.

(2) Open that photo in preview. Crop it so that you can print it. Close preview. Notice it didn't ask you if you wanted to save?

(3) Open that file again. It's still cropped. The original? Gone. Choose "Revert to Saved" from the file menu. Notice the large number of empty windows on the right? Yup, you can't get back to the prior version, even though you never saved.

Now, as a network administrator, imagine the consequences of this for your network. Users accessing shared files and making changes they need, but not saving them because they don't need to be saved. Yup, their version is now THE definitive version for the entire network.

The ability to do non-destructive edits is something that computer users have been doing since, well, the dawn of computing more or less. Lion removes this. Now, add on top of that user mistakes in a network environment. User accidentally deletes all the text from a 24 page document. They don't know what to do so they close the app. Unless the backup has run since that 24 page document was created, it's gone. Forever. And ever. Amen.

Go to backups you say? What if the document isn't accessed for six months from when the user accidentally wiped it out. Hope your backup server is petabyte big, because otherwise that data is gone.

This is a huge, huge problem.

Joel

iMac, Mac OS X (10.7), Tested on both Server 10.6 and 10.7

Posted on Jul 29, 2011 4:19 PM

64 replies

Jan 13, 2012 3:32 AM in response to etresoft

@etresoft. it is becoming less funny every time you keep repeating your continued diatribe against a known bug.

etresoft

Level 9

56,290 points

Jan 13, 2012 11:05 AM in response to Andy Vandenberghe

Andy Vandenberghe wrote:

@etresoft. it is becoming less funny every time you keep repeating your continued diatribe against a known bug.

It isn't a bug. It is working as designed. It is a common tactic to label new features in Lion as "bugs" if they make people feel uncomfortable. Technology doesn't stop. If you can't keep up, you fall behind. That's just the way it works.

Badunit

Level 7

30,348 points

Jan 13, 2012 12:38 PM in response to etresoft

etresoft wrote:

Andy Vandenberghe wrote:

@etresoft. it is becoming less funny every time you keep repeating your continued diatribe against a known bug.

It isn't a bug. It is working as designed. It is a common tactic to label new features in Lion as "bugs" if they make people feel uncomfortable. Technology doesn't stop. If you can't keep up, you fall behind. That's just the way it works.

If you insist it is "working as designed" then I submit that the design was flawed. Saving the changed document to the server while keeping the versioning information on the local computer is not a very robust versioning system. This has nothing to do with being comfortable, it is a flawed design that makes it very easy to screw up. Maybe an analogy: think of it like having your Mac's power cord strung across your room 1 foot off the ground. It works as designed but it is very likely to trip you up.

etresoft

Level 9

56,290 points

Jan 13, 2012 2:01 PM in response to Badunit

Which is why Apple so cruelly forced the MagSafe adapter down our throats.

Anyone can see that it is far better to just assume that all networked file systems support the disk access that a database requires. Maybe Apple could come up with some ._ notation scheme that might hide the versioning files on foreign file systems. There's an idea!

mythrenegade Author

Level 1

17 points

Feb 10, 2012 9:54 AM in response to mythrenegade

Well, it only took six and a half months, but with 10.7.3 this has finally been addressed to a point of reasonable satisfaction.

http://transformingrenewal.blogspot.com/2012/02/mac-osx-lion-safe-for-networks-a t-last.html

It's not the solution I wanted, but it's a lot better than the nine step process to not lose data that was required with 10.7.2... At least now the user can quit without saving by clicking revert, and they don't have to do anything else.

It will be nice to not have to install Snow Leopard on every new purchase anymore.

Joel

Mar 28, 2012 10:22 PM in response to mythrenegade

One of our office's imacs hard disk died, so rather than replace the disk, because you can't quickly do it yourself due to the 'design' of the product, we bought a whole new imac. (yes i know you just need four suction caps to remove the glass... remove the screen etc....torx screws ... heat sensor cable ... blah blah)

In short, It came with lion.

As I've not been using the computer, I had no idea about Lion's new versioning 'feature' - I assumed lion was just like the previous systems but without the jelly bean scroll bars. I was aware of lion being incompatible with powerPC applications, so we lost a few applications, but that is MINOR compared with losing DATA.

I rightly near soiled myself when I read this post - we have a huge number of documents on our server and I have no way of finding out which ones may have been destroyed by our new lion computer.

Having backups is not going to help, because with 7 other users, who knows which files were partially wiped and which ones are OK?

It's not like I can go 'sort files by unintended partial data loss' in the finder.

I hope they just put a control panel to turn off versioning altogether.

Level 7

24,227 points

Mar 29, 2012 5:19 AM in response to Calum Chalmers

Stock up on clean underwear, baby!

mythrenegade Author

Level 1

17 points

Mar 29, 2012 8:14 AM in response to Calum Chalmers

As long as you are running 10.7.3 you should be ok. 10.7.3 finally addresses this problem to the point where we are willing to have Lion on our network. It's not ideal, but it's good enough. I really hate that I have to say good enough about an Apple product though...

Joel

etresoft

Level 9

56,290 points

Mar 29, 2012 10:42 AM in response to Calum Chalmers

Calum Chalmers wrote:

One of our office's imacs hard disk died, so rather than replace the disk, because you can't quickly do it yourself due to the 'design' of the product, we bought a whole new imac. (yes i know you just need four suction caps to remove the glass... remove the screen etc....torx screws ... heat sensor cable ... blah blah)

There are other options:

1) Take iMac to Apple Store

2) Mail iMac to Apple Store

3) Plug in USB drive

No torx required.

As I've not been using the computer, I had no idea about Lion's new versioning 'feature' - I assumed lion was just like the previous systems but without the jelly bean scroll bars. I was aware of lion being incompatible with powerPC applications, so we lost a few applications, but that is MINOR compared with losing DATA.

You haven't lost any data. Those are lies.

I rightly near soiled myself when I read this post - we have a huge number of documents on our server and I have no way of finding out which ones may have been destroyed by our new lion computer.

No data has been destroyed.

Having backups is not going to help, because with 7 other users, who knows which files were partially wiped and which ones are OK?

The number of users is irrelevent. If you are concerned about the integrity of your data, you can just compare the files that have changed since getting the new iMac with the files from last backup before that date. You are using a modern backup system like Time Machine that records multiple backups aren't you?

It's not like I can go 'sort files by unintended partial data loss' in the finder.

Actualy, it is trivial to sort by date. You will not be able to sort by lies, however.

I hope they just put a control panel to turn off versioning altogether.

That isn't going to happen. Nor is versioning at all related to this "data loss" lie. The issue is with autosave. If you don't want autosave, then don't use TextEdit or Preview.

Mar 29, 2012 6:31 PM in response to mythrenegade

mythrenegade - yes you're right that 10.7.3 'fixes' it, however I've had to be really clear in explaining not to hit OK which is the default setting and to not tick the 'don't show this message again box'. Hardly an elegant solution.

etresoft -

You do understand that we're talking about a networked environment not a standalone computer???

yes I've tried it, 10.7 through 10.7.2 does destroy data over networks without giving any notice to the user.

The other contributors here and my concerns are valid as the computer did not come with 10.7.3 it came with 10.7.1 Which did overwrite data on the server - the question is WHAT??? Sorting by date is a not a solution because on which date and which user modified the data? There are 200,000+ files on our server - OSX server doesn't have sort by "last user" capacity. Yes we're backed up, that doesn't help if you can't identify which files were damaged.

As for repairing the mac, we're a business - we don't have time to wait for a computer to come back from repairs - you either swap the disk out quickly or replace the whole unit - the quickest option is the cheapest option for a business scenario. It was the director's computer - I had to have him up and running again in 3 hours - before lunch. Does the apple store fix it that quickly??? No - even though we're less than 200m from an apple store - the only cost effective option was replacement.

As a home user, I would happily send it off to get fixed or do it myself.

I think it's getting obvious that apple is moving quickly away from business and pro users with their system - home users may think it's great, but by not respecting industry standards they are alienating people who have a job to do.

Mar 29, 2012 6:53 PM in response to mythrenegade

3) Plug in USB drive

Actually I considered this a good idea- but director said "**** that - I'm not having a frankenstein machine"

etresoft

Level 9

56,290 points

Mar 29, 2012 6:58 PM in response to Calum Chalmers

Calum Chalmers wrote:

You do understand that we're talking about a networked environment not a standalone computer???

Yes. I think I gathered that sometime around July 29th, 2011.

yes I've tried it, 10.7 through 10.7.2 does destroy data over networks without giving any notice to the user.

Nonsense.

The other contributors here and my concerns are valid as the computer did not come with 10.7.3 it came with 10.7.1

No, none of your rants nor those of any others are valid.

Which did overwrite data on the server - the question is WHAT??? Sorting by date is a not a solution because on which date and which user modified the data? There are 200,000+ files on our server - OSX server doesn't have sort by "last user" capacity. Yes we're backed up, that doesn't help if you can't identify which files were damaged.

Hmmm.... Let's see. If you connected the new iMac on March 20th, then look for any files modified on or after March 20th. That's quick and easy to do in Spotlight.

As for repairing the mac, we're a business - we don't have time to wait for a computer to come back from repairs - you either swap the disk out quickly or replace the whole unit - the quickest option is the cheapest option for a business scenario. It was the director's computer - I had to have him up and running again in 3 hours - before lunch. Does the apple store fix it that quickly??? No - even though we're less than 200m from an apple store - the only cost effective option was replacement.

As a home user, I would happily send it off to get fixed or do it myself.

Let me go ahead and repeat one of my solutions you must have missed in your ranting...

3) Plug in USB drive

I think it's getting obvious that apple is moving quickly away from business and pro users with their system - home users may think it's great,

I'll agree with you on that one. Businesses have been rabidly anti-Apple for decades. That is why Apple is suddenly the bad boy of the press. Business were always smugly disdainful of Apple, but now Apple is super successful (and they are not), it is turning into a vendetta against Apple. "Pro" users have already outed themselves as royal pains. Yes, home users think Apple is great, but they are alone.

by not respecting industry standards they are alienating people who have a job to do.

What nonsense! Apple's sets industry standards. If you disagree then go ahead and install DOS 3.3. Works great with Netware.

Mar 29, 2012 7:22 PM in response to etresoft

Businesses have been rabidly anti-Apple for decades.

Not here - My first mac was a mac plus, then an SE (which I still have) and I've been somewhat evangelising them (although not quite as much as you, it would seem) since 1986. The company where I work has been mac since 1985.

Windows these days is not DOS 3.3 (released 1980) - that's a invalid comparison. If that were a valid remark windows users would only focus on the features of Apple System 1 (released 1984). - actually things have changed since 1980 over on the "dark side". There's no comparison between Mac 10.7 and Apple System 1 (1984) either.

No you can't search files by user. "USER" not "DATE" is necessary to identify WHO modified the file. Who modified the file would tell me if they were using Lion to modify the file.

etresoft

Level 9

56,290 points

Mar 30, 2012 8:06 AM in response to Calum Chalmers

Calum Chalmers wrote:

Not here - My first mac was a mac plus, then an SE (which I still have) and I've been somewhat evangelising them (although not quite as much as you, it would seem) since 1986. The company where I work has been mac since 1985.

I don't evangelise. This is Apple Support Communities. I would like to think I'm preaching to the choir. Instead, I am all too frequently forced to fight on my home turf. While I don't go into Windows or Linux forums and complain, I also don't bother to take prisoners when they show up here causing trouble.

Windows these days is not DOS 3.3 (released 1980) - that's a invalid comparison. If that were a valid remark windows users would only focus on the features of Apple System 1 (released 1984). - actually things have changed since 1980 over on the "dark side". There's no comparison between Mac 10.7 and Apple System 1 (1984) either.

That was merely a reference to the decade you seem to be living in. Things have changed now. We don't save anymore. Deal with it.

No you can't search files by user. "USER" not "DATE" is necessary to identify WHO modified the file. Who modified the file would tell me if they were using Lion to modify the file.

I never said you could. I said the following:

1) Identify the date when you installed the Lion machine. Maybe you still have the receipt. Maybe the UPS driver remembers. Something. Anything.

2) Find those files on your server that were modified after that date. You can sort by date, use Spotlight, whatever.

3) Delete any files that could have possibly been "Lion tainted". They are corrupted. Evil. Infected. Delete them. Delete them all.

This is like a network equivalent of a zombie movie. You can't dawdle. Files are at stake. Don't forget - double tap.

mythrenegade Author

Level 1

17 points

Mar 30, 2012 8:24 AM in response to Calum Chalmers

Calum,

Ignore etresoft. Back in the usenet days we had killfiles for guys like him who cannot see past their own nose and assume everyone else is lying and/or stupid.

You are right, the "solution" is a poor one and still has a high probability of users damaging documents inadvertently. Thankfully Adobe & Microsoft haven't implemented support for this yet, so you really only have to worry about documents that have been opened by applications that support auto-save and versions.

The biggest problem is that the user can click ok if they don't read the dialog box, or even worse, "don't show this again" box. I'm not positive, but I THINK the "don't show this again" box is on a per file basis, but it still opens up the door for significant data loss.

If you haven't been working in apps that support versions, you are probably fine on the server for most (if not all) of your documents even though the machine came with 10.7.1. At least the current solution is FAR better than 10.7.2 which required the user to go through a nine (9!) step process to quit without losing data when working on a network volume.

Joel

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Chronic catastrophic data loss with Lion & servers