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1855 Views 26 Replies Latest reply: Mar 7, 2006 1:20 PM by karengeer
Currently Being ModeratedJan 21, 2006 12:51 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)O.k. I know I haven't given anyone the time to respond yet but I just discovered something really weird and I am hoping that it sheds more light on the nature of the problem and aids someone in helping me. I was just going through my hard drive feeling sure that this problem must arise from something that was installed during the update that somehow affects network activity on my machine. Suddenly I thought, well instead of trying to find that needle in a haystack, why not try to log on to the internet via classic and see what happens? If i get on then that means the problem does lie in my OS 10.4.4 system folder somewhere. I tried it and much to my surprise, it worked! I have no problem surfing the net or whatever when in Classic mode. Curiouser and curiouser.
I've already repaired my permissions and tried to get on using another user account so it's not those things. Anyway, just a bit more info for some kind and helpful person who is more savvy about these things to consider as they (hopefully) read these posts. Thanks.PowerBook 15" G4 Aluminum, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 22, 2006 5:00 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)I have the same problem with 10.4.2. I can't download 10.4.4. because I can't maintain the connection. I get the same message you do and some others like;"the modem has unexpectedly hung-up;check your settings and try again".pbG4 Alum, Mac OS X (10.4.2)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 22, 2006 7:20 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)I've been having horrible TCP/IP connectivity issues ever since doing a clean upgrade from 10.2.8 to 10.4 on my QuickSilver 2002 G4 (and subsequent combo update to 10.4.4 including all the usual install from a clean account, running a disk check on the target partition, repairing permissions before and after update, etc). I did a clean install on an old 500mhz G3 iMac and eventually had the same flakey networking issues. Ethernet is up and I've been able to confirm that by logging into my switch from another computer and checking the interface; just tcp/ip is dead.
I've been able to narrow it down to whenever there is moderate to heavy network usage (I run some network apps such as Intermapper for example) and have been able to consistently kill my IP connectivity by inducing a large number of connections quickly by loading something like BitTorrent and connecting to several large swarm Linux ISO distributions, running ftp transfers between several boxes on my local network, etc. Doing the same back in 10.2.8 resulted in no problems. If I don't do any network intensive tasks on the 10.4.x system(s), everything seems to be fine.
I had setup some shell scripts which are run via a crontab but a simple ifconfig to down and then up the interface doesn't always work as sometimes the only way to get IP connectivity going again after that is to also tick off the built-in ethernet, apply, tick on built-in ethernet, apply in Network System Preferences. tcpdump (from the command line), console and system logs show nothing strange prior to the loss of connectivity.
Not many seem to be having this kind of networking issue which is why I've tried several clean reinstalls on this and other machines. Ready to throw in the towel and go back to my stable 10.2.8 partition (don't want to experiment with upgrading to 10.3.9). I'll sacrifice the ability to use all these newer apps for reliability/stability since 10.4.x is turning into a time wasting nightmare.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 22, 2006 7:42 AM (in response to Hworld)Forgot to include the networking setup I have:
Service provider - Mac OS X Server box serving as both firewall and nat router (en0 = public interface, en1 = interface on local private LAN connected to a Cisco fast ethernet switch). All my computers on the network are setup with static private IP addresses and connected to the switch via cat5 cabling following EIA/TIA standards (I switched these out just to make sure they weren't part of the problem).Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 22, 2006 7:52 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)[snip]
Suddenly I thought,
well instead of trying to find that needle in a
haystack, why not try to log on to the internet via
classic and see what happens?
Ah, you do know that OS X handles all network operations for Classic, and that Open Transport doesn't even load under Classic, don't you? (Try to launch TCP/IP from the Classic Control Panels folder. Go ahead. Try.)
Now, if by 'log on to the internet via classic' you really meant 'reboot into OS 9', then Open Transport loads.
If i get on then that
means the problem does lie in my OS 10.4.4 system
It would appear more likely that the problem is in Library/Preferences or ~/Library/Preferences.
I tried it and much to my surprise,
it worked! I have no problem surfing the net or
whatever when in Classic mode. Curiouser and
I've already repaired my permissions and tried to get
on using another user account so it's not those
You just eliminated ~/Library/Prefences.
Anyway, just a bit more info for some kind
and helpful person who is more savvy about these
things to consider as they (hopefully) read these
posts. Thanks.eMac 1.25GHz 2GB, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 23, 2006 6:13 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)I am having the same issues! In fact I have several comps in my network that are doing teh same thing. I look after 4 powerbooks on a windows network and since updating to 10.4.4 they are all unable to connect. They are nat even able to get an ip adress through dchp. When this first started I would lose the connection one day and then get it back the next only to lose it shortly after. Using network diagnostics worked once when I got a strange message:
TCP/IP is being used by another application.
This is by far the most frustration I have ever had on a mac. In fact I an typing and sending this message on a PC! ArghhhhPower Mac G5 and iBook G4, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 23, 2006 10:24 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)It looks like it was the 10.4.3 part of the combo update that caused this, rather than the 10.4.4 bit. I started another thread here for a very similar problem after updating to 10.4.3 from 10.4.2, which was stable.
Sadly, my hopes are clearly dashed for the 10.4.4 update which clearly doesn't fix this problem. My machine is still slightly broken with 10.4.3. I'm in two minds as to whether I should install this one.
Thanks Hworld for cross-referencing this.
G4 533 & iBook G4 Mac OS X (10.4.3)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 25, 2006 1:17 AM (in response to Mark Russell)FYI,
It might not necessarily be with the 10.4 updates as checking around the net, there are pockets of users experiencing similar loss of network connectivity issues for various OS versions between 10.4 and the current release. The most common seems to be the loss of networking upon waking from sleep but there are also folks who just lose connectivity when only surfing the web unlike my case where it has (so far) only happened under heavy network usage.
To throw this whole troubleshooting thing into a tizzy, I installed my copy of Tiger Server (which I am wary of upgrading to on my OS X Server box so it has just been sitting there for months now) on my Cube and brought it up to 10.4.3 using the downloaded server combo updater. So far, it has not exhibited the network connectivity loss. I plan on applying the 10.4.4 server combo updater and testing to see what happens. Safe to say this is driving me crazy. I can't do this on my QuickSilver since I need to get work done (back in Jaguar with no problems).
On the iMac I setup and am also experiencing loss of connectivity, I set some of the networking parameters via sysctl that I dumped from Tiger Server 10.4.3 to no avail. Tried some things like pulling the network cable at which point Kernel Event Monitor (KEM) gave configd a kick as expected since it detected the interface going down. The problem when I lose connectivity is that the KEM does not detect any changes because ethernet is still active (as seen from both the Mac and the switch side) and the networking preferences (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/preferences.plist) also have not changed. This is such a catch-22 situation since configd does not go into action as it thinks everything is okay (which means for some reason, networking is just dying but the system doesn't seem to know that). This is where I do the ifconfig en0 down, ifconfig en0 inet xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx. netmask xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx broadcast xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx up bit in my shell script and then toggle the ethernet port off and on via the Network System Preferences (that last part changes the preferences and invokes configd to re-read preferences.plist, tells the IP Monitor Agent (IPMA) to apply ip/name server addresses and rebuild the routing tables = full ip connectivity until it goes deaf again).
I'm trying to figure out how to use scutil (which is the command line frontend to the configd database backstore) to tickle the preferences in order to invoke configd so that I can just shell script this stuff. I can run something like scutil -r 192.168.0.1 (my local gateway) and do some temporary preference changes (if I can figure that out) if it returns a not reachable or non-zero status.
Need to be honest but I feel like I am back in Windows doing all this voodoo.
Currently Being ModeratedJan 25, 2006 9:00 PM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)I am also having this problem. I have 4 Macs in the house: 1 2X2G5, 1 Ti PB, 1 G3 iBook and 1 Mini. All running 10.4.4. The G5 is connected via cable to the cable modem, the other 3 via Airport.
All "hang" at odd, seeminly random times. Typically, a page starts to load (in Safari), and the progress bar hangs about in the middle of the "www" address notation. From that point, it's only a matter of time before the "You are not connected to the internet" alert. It does not happen at the same time for all Macs.
The only "cure" seems to be waiting 5 minutes or so, then trying again. Eventually, the internet comes back for a while.
Mail hangs during these timesm also.G5/2Ghz Dual, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 27, 2006 7:46 PM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)After trying several more things and more than likely ruling out Mac hardware, networking cabling/equipment/settings, doing clean installs and manually stepping through each update, I figured it had to be some kind of config issue given that configd needed to be invoked to get connectivity back. The problem is it didn't matter if I did things from a newly created account to rule out any preference related issues. Decided to try "trashing" the network preferences as a last resort (these are norrmally problem free or so I thought.... cannot rule anything out even if it seems unlikely).
I quit System Preferences, then moved the SystemConfiguration directory (where the network preferences are stored) out to my desktop and then rebooted. The settings that I needed to redo were the computer name in Sharing, everything in Energy Saver, and everything in Network. Therefore, if you plan on trying this, make sure to jot down your info; especially go through each tab in your network preferences including any locations that you may have, the settings within each location, and the ordering of your Network Port Configuration per each location (most folks will only have one location, Automatic).
So far on each of the problematic 10.4.x systems (all client versions; the Tiger Server I recently installed never experienced this problem even after doing the 10.4.4 server combo update and bombarding it with traffic/open connections), the intermittent network connectivity issues have disappeared (knock on wood) which previously under the same sort of network load would've caused at least one to go offline by now. I compared the new preferences inside the new /Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration folder and there was a marked difference with the preferences.plist file (this is where the main network settings are stored including locations, port interfaces, IP address config, etc). The new one was cleanly formatted while the old one seemingly had quite a bit of duplicate/likely erroneous entries (plus it was almost 4x's as large; the new one for my particular setup is around 12k).
This troubleshooting step is worth a try if it had not been done before (your mileage may vary) but so far I am happy that I didn't actually throw these computers out the window while trying to figure out what was going on.
At this time, I seriously don't know if this is an intermittent anomaly which happens during the upgrade process (logically I would say no since those preferences are not affected by the updates) or if it is something else during say the shutdown process (like contents in memory not being flushed back to disk properly, a seemingly locked up shutdown process where you may have hit the reset/power button to restart/power off, prior disk errors which may have affected those particular preferences and made it worse over time eventually causing such issues, etc) as not everyone is experiencing this problem.
I made a backup copy of this working configuration and plan to audit those files to see if they differ over time. Hope this might help someone else who might have been going "bald" in the process (from all that hair pulling) or maybe shed a light to someone heavily into OS X internals.Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 28, 2006 9:00 AM (in response to Hworld)Had the same problem - fixed by reducing my MTU to 1400 from the default 1500. Resolved a conflict with my ISP.Mini, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedJan 29, 2006 5:25 PM (in response to PeterH100)Before people start messing around with their MTU (maximum transmission unit) size, they should confirm with their ISP as changing this without knowing what the ISP's recommendation is can cause more issues including performance degradation from excessive packet retransmissions (if the setting is too high) or excessive ACK's (if the setting is too low) and intermittent connectivity to certain web sites making troubleshooting more difficult. If a router (like say a Linksys) or wireless access point sits in between the cable/dsl modem and computer to service multiple systems, then they may also need to doublecheck the settings on those units (in addition to the computer) to match the ISP's recommended setting.
Most of the issues being noted in this thread don't seem to be related to this particular setting though as it is sudden loss of connectivity (i.e. in my case, complete loss of tcp/ip as I was not even able to ping my internal default gateway while the same settings worked fine on 10.2.8).
Anyway, after removing the original SystemConfiguration directory, networking has been solid since then so at least in my case, it was due to the preferences files somehow being messed up.
Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 10, 2006 7:13 AM (in response to Randy McSorley)I've been following these threads for a while as I suffered through the same problem. My issue does not seem to be triggered by the Mac going to sleep, but rather sounds identical to Randy McSorley's problem.
I have been "logging on" to my router and soft-resetting it, and that works -- temporarily. After the router comes back online, I am able to surf successfully for a few minutes before I lose my connection again. A couple of days ago, I bypassed the router altogether, and went direct from my cable modem to the Mac. I haven't had an internet hang since then.
Two days doesn't imply a cure, but given the frequency of the hangs before taking this step, it is certainly suspicious. I don't think the router itself is the probelm. This all started the day I installed 10.4.4.
Question: How many of you experiencing these problems use a router? How many have bypassed the router in trying to diagnose the problem?iMac G4, Mac OS X (10.4.4)
Currently Being ModeratedFeb 10, 2006 7:17 AM (in response to Rollo Tommasi)The more I read, the more steamed I am getting about this. I agree with the other poster -- this stinks like Microsoft. I feel like Apple is shaking this release down at our expense.
Apple has been a media darling for the last couple of years, and Steve Jobs is looking like a saint. Perhaps it would be fun to send Walter Mossberg or the Wall Street Journal technical editor's desk a link to this thread. Perhaps they would enjoy running a story that suggests that it is not all wine and roses on the OS X side of the tracks.
Not that I really want to do that, but I would like to hear from Apple. Even some acknowledgement that this is an issue and they are working on it would be nice.iMac G4, Mac OS X (10.4.4)