Why won't Apple bring back "Save As" since "Duplicate" clearly *****?

Save As has always led to stupid and dangerous behavior on the part of users. If you live such a charmed life that you have never accidentally saved changes over the original document, by hitting command-S reflexively instead of choosing Save As like you meant to, then perhaps you don't know what I'm talking about.

In Lion, you cannot do that. You've got Versions, so even if the document is new enough that it hasn't been backed up yet, you can still undo such a mistake. And, by being forced to use Duplicate BEFORE making your changes, instead of Save As AFTER making changes, you'd find it quite hard to make such a mistake now anyway.

It's different. But it's safer. Get over your hang-ups on how it used to work and start thinking about how it ought to work. In addition to a willingness to try something new, I imagine there's only one other thing that would be needed to make you happy: a keyboard shortcut for Duplicate. You don't have to wait for Apple for that, just add it in System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Keyboard Shortcuts.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Autosave is cool new technology. I like not having to save anymore.Versions is cool new technology. It works very well with Autosave. I will be very happy when Office supports them.

The removal of "Save as" is not related to these. There is no technical reason for it. It is purely an arbitrary user interface decision on Apple's part. Apple is not right 100% of the time. Apple's many successes over the years do a good job of overshadowing its flops. This is one of those.

I have sent my disapproal to Apple. I have also encouraged Microsoft to cherry pick from Apple's good ideas and to leave the rotten ones alone.

There is no technical reason for it. It is purely an arbitrary user interface decision on Apple's part.

I gave a concrete example of how Duplicate is a safer option for achieving the same thing. Don't just tell me I'm wrong, tell me how I'm wrong. How, exactly, other than the fact that it's what you're used to, is Save As better than Duplicate?

Apple is not right 100% of the time.

Show me where I claimed, or even suggested, that they are.

I have also encouraged Microsoft to cherry pick from Apple's good ideas and to leave the rotten ones alone.

LOL, they hardly need your encouragement. They've been doing it for decades. Of course, they seem to have difficulty figuring out which ones are the good ideas and which ones are the rotten ones.

I have just spent about an hour filing away old emails by saving them "as" in Plain Text and giving each one a title that will enable me to know what they were about, 10 years down the line.

I can only do that by using the "Save As" command.

That's just one little thing (there are many other things) that make the "Save as" option essential.

Fortunately, Apple is only able to make autosave compulsory in its own apps.

Already, the more intelligent apps (such as Graphic Converter) have brought out Lion-compatible updates that make Autosave **optional** and turned **off** by default.

That's because the people at GC understand what the people at Apple don't: that when you're working on an image file (but it could be a CAD file or any other type of file) you're likely to be making thousands of changes and then undoing them, many times a minute. You save when YOU want to save, or when you've set the application's OWN AUTOSAVE to save at an interval chosen by you.

You do NOT want Autosave creating massive versioned duplicates of those completely irrelevant done + undone changes.

Now for a little quiz: there is only one application in the entire universe that has not had its own built-in user-configured Autosave since at least 1985.

Guess what application that is?

I don't agree that it is arbitrary. It makes more sense to me and is how I would like it to work.

When I see Save As… I think Save As what? A spreadsheet, a jpeg, a petunia? Save As really meant "make a copy and give it a different name." It probably should have been, "Make a Copy…" However, that sure sounds a lot like Duplicate to me. Because Save As meant make a duplicate, they had to come up with non-intuitive words for "change the format" like Export. I don't want to sell it overseas, I just want to save it as a png. It makes more sense to me that I want to Save <this jpeg> As <a png>. At some point in the evolution, that was added to some programs.

Also, I didn't much care for the way Save As worked because I wanted to make a duplicate of what I was working on, and then go back and continue working on the original, not the duplicate. Granted, that sounds a lot like what Versions provides.

The only difference that Duplicate forces upon you is that you must eventually save the duplicated file. One extra step. My suggestion would be to ask Apple to implement a Duplicate and Save… option when you hold down the option key. Then, it would create the duplicate and ask for a save name.

I have just spent about an hour filing away old emails by saving them "as" in Plain Text and giving each one a title that will enable me to know what they were about, 10 years down the line.

I can only do that by using the "Save As" command.

Okay.... and your point is? Have you not noted the continued presence of Save As in Mail 5.0 on Lion? That is obviously a non-standard case, and Apple recognizes that and has continued to provide the Save As command there. And third-party developers are certainly free to do the same when it makes sense.

Sorry- that is not a valid answer to my quiz question.

I have no interest in your ridiculous quiz question, which has absolutely nothing to do with Save As and adds nothing to this discussion.

Edit: Plus it begins with an erroneous statement.

I think you know what the answer is.

Tom in London wrote:

Fortunately, Apple is only able to make autosave compulsory in its own apps.

Please stop confusing Autosave and "Save as". They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You will never get "Save as" restored by asking for Autosave to be removed. Autosave and Versions works together. You can't really have one without the other. "Save as" is completely different.

Furthermore, Autosave is not compulsory at all. If a 3rd party CAD vendor doesn't feel Autosave is right for their program, they don't have to use it.

I have no idea what you think the answer is, but it's irrelevant to the topic at hand and a bad question. There are many apps that have NEVER had their own "built-in user-configured Autosave," not just "one application in the entire universe." I'm not going to waste my time trying to answer a worthless question, and I'm not wasting any further time explaining why it's a worthless question.

Thomas A Reed wrote:

I gave a concrete example of how Duplicate is a safer option for achieving the same thing. Don't just tell me I'm wrong, tell me how I'm wrong.

You are wrong because of the following:

In Snow Leopard Preview, if I want to scan a TIFF, adjust it, and save as PDF, I must do the following:

1) Scan image as TIFF

2) Adjust contrast, brightness, etc.

3) Save as PDF

To accomplish the same thing in Lion Preview, I must do the following:

1) Scan image as TIFF

2) Duplicate

3) Adjust contrast, brightness, etc.

4) Save (choosing PDF)

5) Close original TIFF document

Those are two extra steps. This is only the bare minimum example. In real world usage, it gets worse. In Snow Leopard, I could just quit Preview. In Lion, I must close documents. I'm not complaining about this part as I understand and agree with the rationale. The problem is that the loss of Save as already adds two steps. The other changes, which otherwise I like, now serve to add even more steps.

Again, this is a bare minimum example. I have left many real-word parts out. For example, when you "save as" in Snow Leopard Preview and change the format, only the base of the file name remains highlighted. The extension is automatically adjusted to what you have selected. You just click "Save" to save the document with the original name and only a new format and extension. Since only the base is highlighed, you can just start typing if you want a new name.

In Lion Preview, a duplicate automatically gets a " copy" suffix. What if you didn't want that? Too bad. You must now either re-type the file name or click to select " copy" and remove. If you change the format, the entire file name is selected (including " copy"). Will automatically add the appropriate extension? Hopefully. Better check first.

Last, but not least. Suppose after performing "Save as", you want to make further adjustments or add annotations to your new PDF. No problem in Snow Leopard. Don't even attempt that in Lion.

I have categorically proven that Lion Preview requires a minimum of two additional steps to obtain the same functionality as in Snow Leopard Preview. Any additional operations in the "Save as" workflow will result in additional required steps and may end up with a corrupted document.

Q. E. D.

Tom in London wrote:

You do NOT want Autosave creating massive versioned duplicates of those completely irrelevant done + undone changes.

Tom, you may be misunderstanding how Versions works. I don't believe it's making duplicate files, it's just recording the *changes*. I think of it as similar to the History panel in Photoshop.

It will always take time to get new and groundbreaking functionality (in retail OS terms) working and I am sure Apple will do the right thing eventually.

While you are at it Apple, please the versioning work when you are using Network Attached Storage devices too!!!!

Because at the moment you just get a message telling you it does not work on "this device type"

etresoft wrote:

In Snow Leopard Preview, if I want to scan a TIFF, adjust it, and save as PDF, I must do the following:

1) Scan image as TIFF

2) Adjust contrast, brightness, etc.

3) Save as PDF

To accomplish the same thing in Lion Preview, I must do the following:

1) Scan image as TIFF

2) Duplicate

3) Adjust contrast, brightness, etc.

4) Save (choosing PDF)

5) Close original TIFF document

Why don't you just

1) Scan image as TIFF

2) Make your adjustments

3) Export as PDF

?