Why won't Apple bring back "Save As" since "Duplicate" clearly *****?

Can you explain to us what functionality is missing from 'Duplicate' in your workflow compared to 'Save as'?

I understand that duplicate is nearly the same as save as..not realy but near enough... but as you say its another very anoying step that I hate. I appreciate the example you gave where versions might come in handy, if you want it thats great but frankly I cant see much use, again thats me. much prefer to be in control of the versions I create and want to save. If the file is corrupt versions might also be corrupt but ok there is more chance of rescuing it. If apple implements save as and version then, as someone said, its adding something that some people may find usefull!! Not the duplicate thing though and please just give us an option to turn it off, no one is asking anything special just an Option in Preferences to turn it off.

I am an early adopter of tech, but i cant see the reason to change something that works. Change so you can show something new? why?

You're argument seems to me to amount to nothing more than "I don't want to change the way I work". And it may be harsh, but Apple has always been (since Steve came back) the kind of company that is perfectly ok with leaving those types of users in the dust. You think you have it bad, try being a Final Cut Pro user.

Autosave is not what you think it is. It is a low-level API that application developers can incorporate as they see fit. Apple demonstrates its use with simple applications such as TextEdit and Preview. A complex application like Illustrator would likely use it differently. You can't blame Apple if some 3rd party come out with a poor usage of Autosave. There is nothing to prevent 3rd party application developers from combining Apple technologies such as Autosave and bundles to give the user automatic recovery and document sandboxes.

I'm not holding my breath for Adobe to update their apps anytime soon. To their shame, they like doing things their own way and ignoring Apple's guidance.

Really so your an old F@rt? why not use the new substitute of FCP?

I know whats been happening with you guys so I understand.lol

Well actually, I'm not one of those guys, but the people I work with are, and they seem to be in a lot of pain. I'm not a video editor, but I'd be excited to try out FCPX because I'm an iMovie user =) You win some, you lose some. I hope for my co-workers sake though that FCPX is improved quickly, but even if it is, they're going to have to learn to change their workflow eventually. It might take them longer to switch over but I'm sure at some point they'll have to.

By all means change things for the better, nothing can stand still in this age of technology but thats not the case. I like change I just dont like useless change. ( in my opinion)

This is not a useless change, in my opinion, it is a godsend to be able to view all the versions and changes in my documents, as well as having the ability to 'duplicate' and save any version I like. Much more flexible and space saving than the old 'save as' was.

Hmm...I've been using Macs since 1988, and I don't ever recall losing work in this fashion.

That proves nothing except that you are exceptionally lucky. I've been using Macs since 1984 - which makes no difference, really - and have done this to myself a handful of times in those years. That's not much, but each time I've caused myself a lot of additional work, and that has been a big learning experience for me. In Photoshop Elements, I've been using Duplicate instead of Save As for years as a result of what experience has taught me.

I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that I will NEVER upgrade our small advertising agency's Macs to Lion unless and until Save As is restored and Auto Save is an option rather than mandatory.

That's a very closed-minded attitude. The future will be rough for you, guaranteed... whether or not Apple changes anything, you can be sure that your workflow will have to change at some point. Change is the only constant in this industry. Will you refuse to try anything new simply because it is different than what you're used to?

Our Art Director works in Illustrator, and will try dozens of different layouts, experimenting with the elements of an ad or a brochure before settling on one he likes, saving, and moving on to the next step. Auto Save would play absolute havoc with the way he works.

First of all, you're making some enormous assumptions about how Autosave works and how Adobe might implement it.

Second, the new features, once implemented in Illustrator, would give him the ability to easily and quickly make multiple duplicates, branching off from any point in development to create new alternatives, all without saving anything if desired. I can't imagine a more powerful way to do exactly what he needs to do, with current technology.

I'm a responsible computer user who long ago listened to the sage advice to save my work often and incorporated this into my daily habits.

As am I. Yet I am human, and capable of mistakes. I have been known to get wrapped up in a project so deeply that I forget to save. I will not turn up my nose at some assistance so I don't have to worry about forgetting. Honestly, that argument is pure crap unless you can demonstrate some real-world (not theoretical) drawback to Autosave.

leave the way that's worked perfectly for millions of us since 1984 alone.

Where would we be if that attitude ruled the industry? Still programming room-sized computers, with less processing power than my calculator, using punch cards and spending hours fishing real bugs out of the circuits.

Thomas A Reed wrote:

I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that I will NEVER upgrade our small advertising agency's Macs to Lion unless and until Save As is restored and Auto Save is an option rather than mandatory.

That's a very closed-minded attitude. The future will be rough for you, guaranteed... whether or not Apple changes anything, you can be sure that your workflow will have to change at some point. Change is the only constant in this industry. Will you refuse to try anything new simply because it is different than what you're used to?

Our Art Director works in Illustrator, and will try dozens of different layouts, experimenting with the elements of an ad or a brochure before settling on one he likes, saving, and moving on to the next step. Auto Save would play absolute havoc with the way he works.

First of all, you're making some enormous assumptions about how Autosave works and how Adobe might implement it.

Second, the new features, once implemented in Illustrator, would give him the ability to easily and quickly make multiple duplicates, branching off from any point in development to create new alternatives, all without saving anything if desired. I can't imagine a more powerful way to do exactly what he needs to do, with current technology.

And you are making some "enormous assumptions" about the way things are where I work.

My attitude is not "close-minded," it's practical for my situation. I know the people I work with. I'm not at all against change and have embraced a great many changes over the years with open arms. But I can't think off-hand of a more radical one than this.

I won't go into details, but I stand by my statement that this new system would wreak absolute havoc with my Art Director's way of working. "I can't imagine" a greater nightmare than telling him he had to root through "multiple duplicates" of his work, searching for the one out of many that has things the way he wanted them. Heck, he can't even find the original file he's worked on half of the time. I grant you that his case is extreme, and his resistance to doing things in any way other than the one way he's learned is legendary. But I suspect he's not alone in the world in this.

I'm a responsible computer user who long ago listened to the sage advice to save my work often and incorporated this into my daily habits.

As am I. Yet I am human, and capable of mistakes. I have been known to get wrapped up in a project so deeply that I forget to save. I will not turn up my nose at some assistance so I don't have to worry about forgetting. Honestly, that argument is pure crap unless you can demonstrate some real-world (not theoretical) drawback to Autosave.

The bottom line is that it takes control out of the user's hands and places it in the hands of the computer. I want to do things when *I* want to do them, not when the computer decides it's time to do them. I want to control the number and permutations of the documents that reside on my computer.

If I screw up this process by forgetting to save, or saving when I really wanted to Save As, then shame on me...I'll have to pay the consequences of my folly. I don't need or want a nanny holding my hand through this process. If others do, that's fine for them.

My request is simple...and out there in cyberspace it is very easy to demonstrate that I'm far from alone in my plea: give us the choice.

DChord568 wrote:

I won't go into details, by I stand by my statement that this new system would wreak absolute havoc with my Art Director's way of working. "I can't imagine" a greater nightmare than telling him he had to root through "multiple duplicates" of his work, searching for the one out of many that has things the way he wanted them. Heck, he can't even find the original file he's worked on half of the time. I grant you that his case is extreme, and his resistance to doing things in any way other than the one way he's learned is legendary. But I suspect he's not alone in the world in this.

My goodness, then Versions sounds like a god send for your art director! Stop duplicating or saving as! Let Versions control all of those changes for him so he doesn't have to. It sounds like your current workflow is a royal pain and Apple is trying to make it easier for you, but you resist and say it works just fine. Clearly it doesn't work just fine, he "can't even find the original file he's worked on half of the time"

DeaPeaJay wrote:

DChord568 wrote:

I won't go into details, by I stand by my statement that this new system would wreak absolute havoc with my Art Director's way of working. "I can't imagine" a greater nightmare than telling him he had to root through "multiple duplicates" of his work, searching for the one out of many that has things the way he wanted them. Heck, he can't even find the original file he's worked on half of the time. I grant you that his case is extreme, and his resistance to doing things in any way other than the one way he's learned is legendary. But I suspect he's not alone in the world in this.

My goodness, then Versions sounds like a god send for your art director! Stop duplicating or saving as! Let Versions control all of those changes for him so he doesn't have to. It sounds like your current workflow is a royal pain and Apple is trying to make it easier for you, but you resist and say it works just fine. Clearly it doesn't work just fine, he "can't even find the original file he's worked on half of the time"

I realize that I'm freely conflating discussions of Save As and Versioning/Auto Save in my discussion, and I apologize if it has got things off-track for this thread.

But in the case of his workflow, it's not even a question of him doing a Save As. It's a question, as I stated, of control. Trust me on this, he does NOT want multiple versions of his document saved at stages when he was simply "playing around" with the elements of his layout. He wants to play around until he's found something he likes, then he wants to freeze the document in that state (upon HIS command, not the computer's) and move on to the next task. He does NOT want to, upon deciding he doesn't like things this way after all, have to root back through multiple versions to find the last stage at which he liked everything.

His being unable to find his original file is a product of his complete disregard for organizing his work. You would laugh out loud to see his Desktop, which is where he stores EVERYTHING. Again, his is an extreme case, but this issue is unrelated to the issue of Auto Save/Versioning etc.

Ok, I can see your point.

So it sounds like maybe what Versions needs, and what would make this problem go away is if you were able to save a "Landmark" version periodically at your choosing. Then instead of sorting through a straight timeline of changes, you'd be able to see the Landmark changes in your document through time.